The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[flashsmith]

In my experience the person spending thousands on a fish aren't hands on like most of us and has the money to burn. If that fish dies they'll just go get another purpleX super duper tang or whatever. Most of us get excited when we can save $5 on a salt bucket.

 

[areefer01]

How many people here have a "wild" dog like a Dingo that they took from the plains of Africa or Australia? Raise your hand.....Higher.

There are still a few places where wild dogs live but I doubt anyone has a "wild" Toy poodle, Pomeranian or Shih-tzu. (I assume, "Wild" Toy Poodles eat Kibbles)

But if you took a wild Dingo from Australia and removed it from it's pack, then put it in a bare enclosure by itself, medicate it and feed it baked food, I bet it would try to eat you.

Or take a Robin off it's nest and put it in a bird cage and feed it baked goods like flakes are and see how happy it seems and how long that poor animal lives.

You can't compare 'wild" animals like fish to domesticated animals and assume you as a Human are giving it a better life than it had in nature.

It was a rhetorical question.

 

[blaxsun]

How many people here have a "wild" dog like a Dingo that they took from the plains of Africa or Australia? Raise your hand.....Higher.

Half dingo... does that count?

 

[Paul B]

It was a rhetorical question

It was a rhetorical answer. But true.

I caught this beautiful Filefish just now in my tank to return back to the store as he grew a little larger than I like. He is about 5" and I rather have 5 or 6 small interesting fish than this big guy. I also have 2 more of them and when they get to big, I will return them.

I caught him with this hook which I made from a needle. I have caught a few fish like this and never hurt any of them as far as I can tell. You can see that hook is about 1/8"

The only other way I could catch this fish would be to remove everything from the tank.



Now I will see what smaller interesting fish I can get.

 

[Schulks]

So IF a fish gets sick you treat it if you can catch it, right?
but other than that you buy the fish, drop the fish, feed good food, and maintain a low stress environment?

Right now I am doing a short QT of 14 days copper, transfer tanks/treat with prazi twice, and then into display.

 

[Paul B]

So IF a fish gets sick you treat it if you can catch it right?

I don't know as my fish never get sick. When I talk "sick" I mean communicable diseases like ich, velvet, broklena (sp) etc.

Not Pop Eye, swim bladder disease or any neurological conditions. I can and have many times cured Pop Eye in a few minutes but some things just can't be cured just like we can't cure everything in people. My own wife unfortunately has MS and except for a little treatment to slow down the affliction, there is no cure.

Also when I speak of "good food" I don't just mean "premium" frozen food although I do use that as my staple. I mean foods with living bacteria like live worms or clams that I get fresh or freeze them myself.

To me, this is "key" and if I fed 100% food from an LFS, I don't think my fish would be completely free of disease for decades. I feel people make a big mistake thinking food from an LFS is the best thing to feed 100%.

I think fish, including us, need foods with bacteria in it. We used to think babies had to be kept sterile. Me and my wife used to boil our Daughters bottles and nipples and felt we were doing good. We were not. Babies were designed to live and eat in dirt like they still do in some parts of the world.

(Neanderthals didn't bathe much, especially when they had no hot water or nice smelly bath bombs like my Grand Daughter likes)



And, No, I don't think we should let our children live in squalor. The dirt we have today is not like the dirt of prehistoric times. Today's dirt is filled with chemicals and man made diseases which we have no immunity from.

I think 14 days of copper is counter productive. It will probably not kill any parasites and it will just kill gut bacteria and add poisons to the fishes system. Copper is a poison to parasites and fish, just in different doses.

If you feel you need to kill parasites, I think you need longer copper but I have not used copper in decades except for experiments or if I get a fish for free covered in parasites. If I do, I will use copper and add a diatom filter to the tank the fish is in or If I have it I would use copper and quinicrine hydroclide (malaria medication) which will clear the fish in a day. Then use a diatom filter.

Of course, for me, I feel parasites are a normal, natural creature the fish evolved to live with and in no way harm fish.

If they don't harm my fish, they shouldn't harm any fish unless you keep them incorrectly and I have made a few video's and wrote a book that no one has to watch or read. It is just my opinions.

We can certainly take advice from anyone, even someone who has a very successful tank that was set up 6 months ago.

I could be lying and secretly want to see all fish die from parasites. Yeah, thats my goal. Kill all the fish.

 

[areefer01]

It was a rhetorical answer. But true.

Is it though?

The only other way I could catch this fish would be to remove everything from the tank.

My personal preference is to save the barbless hooks for when I go fly fishing for trout and use a fish trap with my display. I don't recall ever having to use a hook. Especially for filefish that sleep in a known location daily. Just net them out as they attach at night usually to a soft coral. And I keep both radial and matted filefish.

 

[MnFish1]

I don't have any thousand dollar fish. If I wanted one I would have one but there is no fish that I can think of that I want that I don't have except for a Janss Pipefish which I can't find any more. But they are about $25.00.

If I wanted my fish to live long enough for it to only die from old age, I would just acclimate it for about 20 minutes, then put it in my tank where I will enjoy it for a long number of years.

This year I gave away a large Koran Angelfish fish (Which I posted) and bought about 8 smaller fish. Today I am going to try to catch a fan tail filefish that grew to large and bring it back to the store where I got it. Then maybe I will get 4 or 5 smaller fish. I now have about 40 fish including a few "ich Magnet" tangs.

Yes, I am very "lucky"

No one said you were lucky. I was responding to another person who said his/her plan was to use 'natural selection'.

 

[MnFish1]

In my experience the person spending thousands on a fish aren't hands on like most of us and has the money to burn. If that fish dies they'll just go get another purpleX super duper tang or whatever. Most of us get excited when we can save $5 on a salt bucket.

Let's back up. Anyone with a large tank - likely has $1000 worth of fish. Thats not a hard metric to beat. Yellow tangs now a days are selling from between 300 and 700 depending on your area. People that have expensive fish are just as likely to want to save $5 on a bucket as everyone else. (thats how they made money in the first place - not overspending)

 

[MnFish1]

I think 14 days of copper is counter productive. It will probably not kill any parasites and it will just kill gut bacteria and add poisons to the fishes system. Copper is a poison to parasites and fish, just in different doses.

Agreed. However, multiple studies including anecdotal comments from people here suggest that copper (though it may have some initial immunosuppressant effects) - does not have any long-term effects in the majority of fish (and the ones that are more susceptible are well known. Agreed - there is no rationale to just use 14 days of copper. There is also no rationale IMHO to feeding earthworms to get 'more fish gut bacteria'

PS - Frozen foods (many) have whatever bacteria that were present in and on them when they were frozen. LRS contains living bacteria, for example.

 

[Schulks]

@Paul B
Thanks for the long response!

I am feedings LRS already. I will be on the lookout for fresher meaty foods to start throwing in too.

I use 14 days copper to help the fish coming from my LFS. My tanks don't have enough live rock and my LFS moves so many fish through their system it worries me. Fighting ich was no fun.
14 days with a tank transfer at the end is the minimum time humblefish would allow me to treat with copper lol. It isn't recommended but theoretically ich is off the fish after 12 days I believe.

I just remembered I did this because I was going on vacation and 'accidentally' had some fish in QT I wanted to get them out and into the display before I left.

 

[flashsmith]

Let's back up. Anyone with a large tank - likely has $1000 worth of fish. Thats not a hard metric to beat. Yellow tangs now a days are selling from between 300 and 700 depending on your area. People that have expensive fish are just as likely to want to save $5 on a bucket as everyone else. (thats how they made money in the first place - not overspending)

The way it sounds $1,000 on A fish...

 

[Subsea]

@Paul B
I watched reefbum interview with a smile. Your funniest comment “I love detritus” reminded me of your MULM thread.

https://www.reef2reef.com/posts/2981931/bookmark

Humblefish interview in person in workshop in front of your tank was priceless. Apparently, the video was several sessions over several days.

I was on fish disease forum at MARSH because of bacteria infection from attack by Sally Lightfoot Crab and asked Humblefish about his visit with you. And he sent the above interview with you. It was educational and entertaining.

 

[i cant think]

The way it sounds $1,000 on A fish...

I know a few people that do this however the main reason I find for it is;
It’s a fish (e.g. Wrought Iron Butterfly) they’ve wanted for a LONG time however they wait until they gain the experience before taking the plunge on the money.

Most people won’t spent 1K on a fish just to let it die and get another. Most want to spend 1K and have the fish thrive, it’s similar to people who buy 1K corals, they buy them in the hopes of growing it out and not losing it. Some even buy them to hopefully bring down the pricing in that area.

 

[MnFish1]

The way it sounds $1,000 on A fish...

Either way - 1000$ per fish or $1000 for a group - all are threoretically at risk, right? Again, my comment was specific to the comment 'Natural selection' - which implies - just dump a bunch of fish in a tank - if they live they live if they die who cares. Instead - IMHO - If you decide not to QT - all good - but if a fish does develop a disease - it's the owners responsibility to diagnose and treat it.

 

[Subsea]

Either way - 1000$ per fish or $1000 for a group - all are threoretically at risk, right? Again, my comment was specific to the comment 'Natural selection' - which implies - just dump a bunch of fish in a tank - if they live they live if they die who cares. Instead - IMHO - If you decide not to QT - all good - but if a fish does develop a disease - it's the owners responsibility to diagnose and treat it.

I always have enjoy reading your post. Not always in 100% agreement, however you always added value to the discussion. I agreed with above post (except who cares), I thought that was unnecessary and untrue.

Let’s park at:
“it's the owners responsibility to diagnose and treat it”

As it should be. AMEN

Lets discuss “treat it”. In my experiences, removing stress is the best possible treatment for many situations with fish and with people. Death certificates indicate died from heart attack, when the real hidden killer was stress. Without a doubt stress compromises immune system. To what degree is more difficult to quantify.

 

[Paul B]

Humblefish interview in person in workshop in front of your tank was priceless. Apparently, the video was several sessions over several days.

No, it was all in one session although he stayed in my neighborhood for a few days. Nice guy.

I don't have a $1,000.00 fish but if I bought one, I would just put it in my tank just like I just put 3 fish in my tank 10 minutes ago. I think I now have 44 fish.

 

[atoll]

For me so many people set up a tank without much care for the fish they're going to keep.or don't even know what they are going to keep. They concentrate on how their reefscape looks too them and asking others what they think of it.
Most don't start with a list of fish or even an idea they want before building thier reefscape. Funny thing is once the corals are all mature the reefscape will.look nothing like it started out as. How many have you seen ask " I want to keep XYZ fish, what kind of reefscape should I be building"

 

[C4ctus99]

For me so many people set up a tank without much care for the fish they're going to keep.or don't even know what they are going to keep. They concentrate on how their reefscape looks too them and asking others what they think of it.
Most don't start with a list of fish or even an idea they want before building thier reefscape. Funny thing is once the corals are all mature the reefscape will.look nothing like it started out as. How many have you seen ask " I want to keep XYZ fish, what kind of reefscape should I be building"

Very true, my problem is every time I add or change something I change my mind about the next thing I want in there

 

[atoll]

Very true, my problem is every time I add or change something I change my mind about the next thing I want in there

It's more about the type and size of fish for me that influences the kind of scape you build.
Most small fish benefit from lots of rock with holes caves and overhangs. Tangs, large angels and the like not so much and more open space. However they still need sleeping spaces and areas around the back of the reefscape. All fush need to feel secure in thier environment we crate for them.