The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[MnFish1]

I have those too, but I am figuring that you don't really want to see them. I'm fact, here is my foxface right now!

What's your point....if there is one? Is it that you want to cut down everyone else without ever saying how you would do it?

I never really see you saying how you do anything, but I constantly see you posting all over this site on multiple threads about how someone else is doing it wrong. How does anyone benifit from that, including yourself?

Hmmm - Not quite sure how saying "You're right" is a criticism. Someone else said fish don't eat Nori.... But - If you click on my name - you'll see that I post many times/day helping people with fish medicine. I appreciate your constant criticism of me though.

 

[Reefing Madness]

Really guys??

 

[MnFish1]

@jasonrusso the issue in the thread was (most recently) - that feeding Nori - is not good (as to my interpretation). Someone said - it's not good - I wanted to ask a general question - About Nori. Its not an attack against you

 

[jasonrusso]

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How are the worms doing? Where are you keeping them, feeding them?

 

[Tazman]

I’m a noob to reef aquarium but had some marine fish keeping experience a while back. Anyway I hired a company to install a RedSea Reefer S 850 (220G) Mixed Reef system about 5 months ago. Most of the OG fish were dead after the first couple of months once the tank cycled. It started out as an outbreak of ich and possibly velvet. Everything then went south after I started dosing H2O2 and QT the dying’s in copper. The remaining survivors in DT tank developed immunity and lived to this day. The system did go thru a partial fallow period after the die offs where no new fish or corals were introduced, just the survivors which were asymptomatic.



After 6 weeks of this partial fallow, I started adding fish again. This time I had a chance to read through Paul’s thread and implemented many of his practices. First I changed food from frozen brines/mysis to LRS reef frenzy. I also increased daily Nori sheets and added occasional live clams to the diet. QT is more for observational and getting used to LRS food. No h2o2, copper, CP, or hyposalinity were deployed this time around. I did go up on the UV from 57W to 114W @ 500 GPH ( approx. 9360,000 uw/cm) and added Ozone with APEX ORP controller. ORP target points were 360 for off and 300 for on. GAC on outgoing affluent and skimmer air exhaust .



This time I noticed all new fish would go through a skin only ich phase (vs respiratory last time) which lasted 1-2 weeks then go away on its own when fish are well fed and fat. Additional new fish were added 2-3 weeks later to give the first group time to recover. I used intank breeder boxes as QT for small fish and external 20G tank for larger fish. New fish would stay in QT boxes or tank until acclimated to LRS food, developed and recovered from ich. Water changes and gravel suction twice a week while ich are visible. So far this seems to work at keeping ich at bay. However time will tell .



Below are some specs on my system



Arag-Alive Fiji Pink Sand

Vector L2 pump

ReefMat 1200 Fleece Roller Filter

Redsea RSK 900 skimmer

Aqua UV 57w x 2 running at 520 GPH (approx. 360,000 uw/cm)

Side Flow Reactor running Rox8

ReefDose 4 - Dosing Pump

Ozone poseidon 220 with air dryer

1000 Watt Helio PTC Smart Heater

Trident & A3 Apex Pro Controller System (Temp, PH, Mg, Ca, Kh)

Hanna Marine Monitor ( Salinity & PH)

40G Refugium with MarinePure Spheres & Chaeto & Kessil LED

Ozone poseidon 220 with air dryer and GAC



Purple Tang 5”

Gem Tang 3”

Scopas Tang 3”

Yellow Mimic Tang 4”

Blue Jaw Trigger 5”

Whitetail Tang 5”

Blue Star Leopard 2 inch

Marine Betta 4 inch (survivor)

Melanurus wrasse 4 inch (survivor)

Green chromis x 5 (survivor)

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks for giving so much information - and so many pictures. IMHO - You said 'partial quarantine', 'partial fallow'. That said - given what you said - you followed Pauls thread - I would not switch course (though I disagree with it). It seems like you would like to straddle both sides. You IMHO - should have a protocol - one way or the other - and I'm not trying to be offensive. Pick one - follow it - and ask questions

 

[Tazman]

Thanks for giving so much information - and so many pictures. IMHO - You said 'partial quarantine', 'partial fallow'. That said - given what you said - you followed Pauls thread - I would not switch course (though I disagree with it). It seems like you would like to straddle both sides. You IMHO - should have a protocol - one way or the other - and I'm not trying to be offensive. Pick one - follow it - and ask questions

Glad to contribute to the group and share what I learned. I didn't run across this thread until I'm 1/2 way thru the fallow period. So that's the reason for the partial and not full fallow. Also I my fish are quite aggressive eaters. Everything gone in 2 secs !!! So the only way to train new fish to eat what I feed is in an isolation box or external tank. The goal is still the same. Just developed my own way to get there.

The 2 leopard wrasses and Scopa Tang are being trained to eat LRS in isolation boxes in the pics

 

[Paul B]

You IMHO - should have a protocol - one way or the other - and I'm not trying to be offensive. Pick one - follow it - and ask questions

I actually agree with this. Also, your tank is quite new to use my system so I hope it keeps working for you. Try to feed those clams at least twice a week.
Good Luck

 

[Singspot]

So you are saying that by simply ING giving the fish proper nutrition, QT isn't needed?

Do you have tangs?

I have tangs and personally experienced that careful water quality (and ecosystem) management, feeding well and minimizing stress (do not move rocks, do not chnage fishes, do not keep hand in tank too much) and allowed getting thru full on ich without death and without medicines. Not using meds kept tank eco system intact and helped keep future better.

Of course this method works better with established tanks and self-disciplined

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

One neat factor: Paul's method is working in my freshwater which is grossly overstocked with fish that had ich on them at time of addition from lfs

By using no plastic decor but mud base with 130 lbs of tank driftwood + plants sold out of a twenty year system, the ideal aged natural substrates Paul favors and uses in his immune approach (plus feeding), my fw system suppresses disease without medication

Ich dots leave any added fish, go into the system I guess but at year one it doesn't express. This tank is really well exported, it's high flow and high fish stocking that in lesser environmental conditions would require constant meds. There's approximately 30 fish in a 55, it's full.


I'm feeding the best possible foods, even live tisbe pods at times. Cut up market food, I'm able to literally replicate Paul's method in freshwater all day long if that helps

I know fw sw isn't a direct correlation between crypto/ ich but I do employ this method, wanted to state.

Getting a group of Petco or lfs shoppers to perform this task in marine, with all its inherent variables, really tough work am thinking. They have access to market quality feed however, a big portion of Paul’s success is feed quality. and they have via internet trading the ability to source reef-specific (real reef) substrates somehow, get a chunk of maricultured rock that looks like Medusa, it adds the oceanic diversity, micropods, that his system presents as the ideal suppressant to disease. The way I see it, if you hit those two variables hard you have a chance to replicate Paul’s system, leave one out and it’s imbalanced. Literal marine substrates, or even mud and in some case ocean water or maricultured rock bring a competition aspect into tanks that we can’t replace without harsh meds and qt/fallow/xfer

I’ve had a FW tank for about 4 years now and I in fact never cycled the tank, but only added fishes. The first year I had a couple of fish deaths, the years after that, yes I had a death here or there but never had any problems due to infection (only in that first year).

I always wondered how I stressed about keeping my reef sterile while I let my FW take its own course and never have problems, no matter how much neglection I may sometimes have in my husbandry when it comes to FW

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

Yes, exactly ^^^. I've had much the same results using a method somewhat like Paul's in my freshwater planted tanks for years, no decades (yikes I'm old) . Almost all of the fish die from old age, with little to no disease ever appearing in my tanks. When I first got into saltwater, I tried to use the same methods and it was a huge disaster. All the fish died. And they continued to die until a stumbled across Humblefish's methods. I like to keep an open mind, but watching all those beautiful fish die in my initial saltwater experiences was brutal. Almost left the hobby.

I’ve had the same story on FW. I have a friend who never quarantines anything, yet he has never had problems with keeping his fish healthy.

When I was in the hobby, I would QT my fish, but something that stumbled me was, if I QT my fish for reasons of infection, isn’t it in logical to add inverts and coral without a proper QT as they too carry this disease ?

I only ever had a pair of clowns and I did QT them, but I never did my coral.

 

[Paul B]

Yesterday I collected amphipods. That was the third time in a week I collected them so I got thousands of them. I poured out much of the floating mud but kept the stuff on the bottom with the amphipods and dumped them in my tank.

I have done this since the beginning and to this day,never had any communicable diseases. When I lived more inland I used garden soil for the bacteria. The people that feel faint now are probably the people who have disease problems in their tanks.

 

[Paul B]

In 2018 when this thread started I mentioned this Fireclown and his mate.
I still have them, they are still spawning and they are over 30 years old.

 

[Paul B]

How do vegetarian fish acquire their gut bacteria and if it’s from the live vegetation then can that be substituted with fish that are omnivorous?

Here is my 12 year old, total vegan urchin devouring a clam which is his (or her) favorite meal. (It's the white thing on his left) He will smell them as soon as I put them in the tank and "run",,,OK crawl over to the thing but the fish inadvertantly get there first so I have to "shoot" the clam at the thing.

You can see him here smiling.

 

[blaxsun]

Vegan urchin, lol.

 

[PeterC99]

Here is my 12 year old, total vegan urchin devouring a clam which is his (or her) favorite meal. (It's the white thing on his left) He will smell them as soon as I put them in the tank and "run",,,OK crawl over to the thing but the fish inadvertantly get there first so I have to "shoot" the clam at the thing.

You can see him here smiling.

Is this the new trend - “Vegan Reefing” and do Vegan Reefs no longer need to be quarantined?

 

[Paul B]

I don't know. I wouldn't quarantine anything.

 

[Doctorgori]

I don't know. I wouldn't quarantine anything.

I was thinking giving you a UV unit is like “Q” (from James Bond) giving a “laser fountain pen” to “Artemus Gordon” … Paul would (or have you) even use(d) one?

 

[Paul B]

Doctorgori I did use a UV sterilizer when the hobby began just because it was new and I thought it was cool. I quickly learned that it was silly for most situations except they are very good at clearing up green water in a goldfish pond.

As you know, I feel it is counterproductive to kill organisms in a reef tank unless it is used in a store or some sort of transient fish storage facility.

But I would love a laser fountain pen and I remember using non-laser fountain pens when I was in early grade school and when ball point pens came out they were really cool.

Wow, I'm old.

 

[Doctorgori]

@PaulB just curious, what do you think of those “negative aquascape” tanks? the ones with the single “anti-gravity rock” and the entire 300gallon tank covered in crystal white sand?