The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[Paul B]

7. I measure parameters more often than @Paul B - but not that often -

I collected some water yesterday and tested the salinity. It was so low I could have probably kept kissing gourami's in there so I added salt. Then I tested the water in my tank and the salinity was so low that I probably could have kept Discus and goldfish with those kissing gourami's.

I didn't realize but the way I have my skimmer set up now, the water from the effluent goes right into a drain so I don't know how much water is lost. It used to go into a bucket and I would replace that water with seawater.
The skimmer must have been going nuts for a few weeks and dumping out the water which is automatically replaced by fresh water. I am going to have to work on that. Or start buying Kissing Gourami's..

PS I will look for the rest of that research about the kidneys processing chemicals from parasites. Right now, going out to a nice dinner by the sea. The very cold sea.

 

[MnFish1]

SO everyone wanted an article - I decided to do a poll instead. There are no right or wrong answers - its just a poll
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/cryptocaryon-and-immunity.543153/

 

[MnFish1]

I collected some water yesterday and tested the salinity. It was so low I could have probably kept kissing gourami's in there so I added salt. Then I tested the water in my tank and the salinity was so low that I probably could have kept Discus and goldfish with those kissing gourami's.

I didn't realize but the way I have my skimmer set up now, the water from the effluent goes right into a drain so I don't know how much water is lost. It used to go into a bucket and I would replace that water with seawater.
The skimmer must have been going nuts for a few weeks and dumping out the water which is automatically replaced by fresh water. I am going to have to work on that. Or start buying Kissing Gourami's..

PS I will look for the rest of that research about the kidneys processing chemicals from parasites. Right now, going out to a nice dinner by the sea. The very cold sea.

A HA - Its actually the hypo salinity that is keeping the CI at bay. Now we have the explanation

 

[JohnPeck]

Great write up Paul. Very very interesting. Unfortunately, i just got the hang of my QT protocol. Freshwater dip with methylene blue and proper ph/temp for as close to 10 minutes as i can get. (I usually panic at 7-8 min), prazipro, coppersafe with hannah checker and metro. 6 weeks of healthy eating. Change water out to remove chemicals / meds and replace with DT water. 10 more days and all looks good and the kids line up to watch the new fish join the family. I also qt 2 fish at a time. I think they were depressed all alone. I even beat a bout of uronema. That chromis has been in the DT about 6 months post qt. Thanks to this site and @Humblefish , @HotRocks and @4FordFamily and many others for answeing my questions and turning the built-in 200 gallon tank that came with my house from a calamity into an interesting hobby!

 

[JohnPeck]

Paul mentions quality food. Do you guys consider Frozen Formula 1 and Formula 2 and Prime Reef along with dried seaweed sheets of varying color a quality diet?

 

[Thales]

(ISRN ImmunologyVolume 2012 (2012), Article ID 853470, 29 pageshttp://dx.doi.org/10.5402/2012/853470Review ArticleAn Overview of the Immunological Defenses in Fish SkinMaría Ángeles Esteban)

Quote:
According to these authors "probiotic for aquaculture is a live, dead or component of a microbial cell that, when administered via the feed or to the rearing water, benefits the host by improving either disease resistance, health status, growth performance, feed utilisation, stress response or general vigour, which is achieved at least in part via improving the hosts or the environmental microbial balance."The first demonstration that probiotics can protect fishes against surface infections was against Aeromonas bestiarum and Ichthyophthirius multifiliis in rainbow trout [330]. The research on this topic is considered of high priority at present because enriched diets could be used as preventive or curative therapies for farmed fishes. End Quote

Great paper! - here is the paper it is quoting
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1365-2672.2008.03817.x
This is talking about probiotics, cultured bacteria, not ingesting whole parasites.

 

[Thales]

I like frozen foods like LRS, not much processing beyond c

I didn't realize but the way I have my skimmer set up now, the water from the effluent goes right into a drain so I don't know how much water is lost. It used to go into a bucket and I would replace that water with seawater.
The skimmer must have been going nuts for a few weeks and dumping out the water which is automatically replaced by fresh water. I am going to have to work on that. Or start buying Kissing Gourami's..

I like running the skimmer effluent to a bucket that has a float switch that turns off the skimmer when tripped. That way the skimmer can only over skim the amount you are comfortable with. If you have a controller like the APEX, you can get a text or email when the bucket is full so you don't go weeks with the skimmer off by accident.

 

[Thales]

I like frozen foods like LRS, not much processing beyond c


I like running the skimmer effluent to a bucket that has a float switch that turns off the skimmer when tripped. That way the skimmer can only over skim the amount you are comfortable with. If you have a controller like the APEX, you can get a text or email when the bucket is full so you don't go weeks with the skimmer off by accident.

I also have a pump in the effluent bucket that goes to drain, so flip a switch and away it goes. (and a controller turns it off after 2 minutes so you don't have to check up on it or lug water). You can control the salinity with fw, nsw, or through evaporation - or a combination.

 

[EJReef]

This sounds like parents refusing to immunize their kids

 

[Scott Campbell]

I have to tip my hat to Paul on this thread. If I was arguing with a noted and extremely well-respected marine biologist and suddenly found myself saying "Well, maybe science is wrong" - I believe I would probably just laugh and throw in the towel.

 

[Humblefish]

This sounds like parents refusing to immunize their kids

Pretty much. I'm no fan of medications, but sometimes vaccination is the lesser of two evils. Especially in areas where certain pathogens are prevalent.

Same applies to saltwater aquarium fish. We know the supply chain is polluted, and we know which virulent parasites are most common. So why not prophylactically protect our finned friends from these dangers??

Again, I understand how healthy fish in the ocean are able to ward off diluted parasites via their natural immune system. But the fish we receive are:

1. Typically not healthy and have an already compromised immune system.
2. Go into a glass box which cannot compare to the vastness of the ocean.

I suppose a diatom filter or UV sterilizer can somewhat replicate dilution. Perhaps an oxydator can enrich a fish's O2 intake enough to withstand the parasites/worms until resistance/immunity occurs. Or maybe it's proper nutrition which boosts a fish's natural immune system to optimal levels. Hell, maybe it's all three plus a bunch of other stuff you need to do?? In any case, they all sound like excellent tools to employ in one's DT.

But are any of these things an excuse to be lazy, and not make the effort to QT fish you know are probably coming to you in rough shape?

My favorite excuse is how QT is too "stressful" on the fish. Let’s stop and think about this. You’re a fish. You just traveled thousands of miles, spending time in various tanks with poor water quality. So poor, in fact, that an estimated 70-90% of the other fish didn’t make it. You’ve also been exposed to countless pathogens and may have not eaten for days or even weeks. So, which seems like the least stressful option to you? Dumped in a DT, filled with other fish less than thrilled about your arrival, with whom you must immediately compete for food and territory. Or would you prefer a tank of your very own; so you can rest, eat without competition and be strengthened before joining the DT. I know which option I would choose!

 

[Paul B]

Thales, good link, I studied that one a few years ago. It seems that this probiotic can give fish 100% immunity to ich. (I think it was trout) Sounds like something this hobby needs.

Quote:
Although both probiotics tested were effective in controlling fin rot, it is striking that only probiotic GC2 appeared to confer protection against Ich. However, it is important to emphasize that the experiment was only duplicated, and therefore, further replication is recommended to strengthen this very promising result. At the moment, there are no licensed treatments for Ich (Matthews 2005). Previously, treatments have included aggressive chemical baths, such as formalin or malachite green (Matthews 2005), but these were removed from the European market owing to their toxicity (European Union, directive no. 90/676/EEC; article 14, regulation 2377/90/EEC). Therefore, the efficacy of an in‐feed probiotic in protecting against Ich represents a significant first step towards effective preventative treatment against this disease while minimizing additional costs of administration.
End Quote:

Paul mentions quality food. Do you guys consider Frozen Formula 1 and Formula 2 and Prime Reef along with dried seaweed sheets of varying color a quality diet?

I have never used either of them so I can't comment.

I suppose a diatom filter or UV sterilizer can somewhat replicate dilution.

I think a diatom filter is an excellent choice if you are trying to remove just about anything solid and harmful like a parasite or politician.

You’re a fish. You just traveled thousands of miles, spending time in various tanks with poor water quality. So poor, in fact, that an estimated 70-90% of the other fish didn’t make it. You’ve also been exposed to countless pathogens and may have not eaten for days or even weeks. So, which seems like the least stressful option to you? Dumped in a DT, filled with other fish less than thrilled about your arrival, with whom you must immediately compete for food and territory.

Yes but on that trip look at all the new friends they made, the languages and different cultures they learn about.

Or would you prefer a tank of your very own; so you can rest, eat without competition and be strengthened before joining the DT. I know which option I would choose!

That new tank is decorated with PVC pipes so the fish get the horrors because they know that sewer pipes are made out of PVC pipes and they think they died and were flushed. But the ones that live look out of the glass and may see a commercial about Starkist Tuna where they are put in a can with fish they don't know, filled with oil and labeled "Dolphin Safe"

 

[Paul B]

Here is something found I another Fish Immunity Paper.

GALT includes gastrointestinal mucosa, gills, and skin. These tissues produce mucus containing soluble defense components, such as lysozyme, complement system proteins and immunoglobulins in order to promote the first barrier against pathogen agent. These lymphoid tissues are scattered throughout the mucosa in clusters of defense cells, including macrophages, lymphocytes, mast cells and granulocytes (Georgopoulou and Vernier 1986, Rombout et al. 2010). These cells capture the antigen in order to process and promote immune memory. The liver has the same function as in mammals, of producing humoral compounds such as proteins of the complement system and acute phase proteins of the inflammatory response (Davidson et al. 1997, Salinas et al. 2011).

And:
Eosinophils are distributed by connective tissue, especially in the gastrointestinal tract, gills and bloodstream and provide degranulation when there are parasites infestations.

The tissues and organs that structure the immune system of bony fish are classified as lymphoid, and there is no myeloid classification, such as in mammals, because fish lack bone marrow and lymph nodes. The lymphoid organs are the kidneys (the largest lymphoid organ), thymus, spleen and gut associated lymphoid tissues (GALT), formed during larval development.

To me this means when there are parasites present in the stomach or gastrointestinal tract the tissues produce mucus that contains soluble defense components to promote a barrier against the pathogen agent.
That is where I got that idea from, Or am I reading that incorrectly? ​

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Anais da Academia Brasileira de Ciências
Print version ISSN 0001-3765
An. Acad. Bras. Ciênc. vol.86 no.3 Rio de Janeiro Sept. 2014 Epub Sep 09, 2014
http://dx.doi.org/10.1590/0001-3765201420130159
Agrarian Sciences

Fish Immunology. The modification and manipulation of the innate immune system: Brazilian studies

JAQUELINE D. BILLER-TAKAHASHI 1

ELISABETH C. URBINATI 2

This has nothing to do with immunity but I found it interesting on Wikipedia:

Although parasites are generally considered to be harmful, the eradication of all parasites would not necessarily be beneficial. Parasites account for as much as or more than half of life's diversity; they perform an important ecological role (by weakening prey) that ecosystems would take some time to adapt to; and without parasites organisms may eventually tend to asexual reproduction, diminishing the diversity of sexually dimorphic traits.[22] Parasites provide an opportunity for the transfer of genetic material between species. On rare, but significant, occasions this may facilitate evolutionary changes that would not otherwise occur, or that would otherwise take even longer.[23]

 

[Paul B]

This is also where I got that 72 days from. I didn't make it up.

This is from Humblefish with the heading "How to Quarantine"

Humblefish said: ↑
Substrate and rock are best avoided in QT, as those can absorb many medications. However, one or two small pieces of live rock may be added for ammonia control, so long as they are coming from a disease free tank. The live rock will need to be removed once a disease is spotted and before medications are used. Furthermore, the live rock must be considered “contaminated” once exposed to a fish disease, and left in a fallow (fish free) environment for 72 days to starve out any parasites.

 

[Jay Norris]

Pretty much. I'm no fan of medications, but sometimes vaccination is the lesser of two evils. Especially in areas where certain pathogens are prevalent.

Same applies to saltwater aquarium fish. We know the supply chain is polluted, and we know which virulent parasites are most common. So why not prophylactically protect our finned friends from these dangers??

Again, I understand how healthy fish in the ocean are able to ward off diluted parasites via their natural immune system. But the fish we receive are:

1. Typically not healthy and have an already compromised immune system.
2. Go into a glass box which cannot compare to the vastness of the ocean.

I suppose a diatom filter or UV sterilizer can somewhat replicate dilution. Perhaps an oxydator can enrich a fish's O2 intake enough to withstand the parasites/worms until resistance/immunity occurs. Or maybe it's proper nutrition which boosts a fish's natural immune system to optimal levels. Hell, maybe it's all three plus a bunch of other stuff you need to do?? In any case, they all sound like excellent tools to employ in one's DT.

But are any of these things an excuse to be lazy, and not make the effort to QT fish you know are probably coming to you in rough shape?

My favorite excuse is how QT is too "stressful" on the fish. Let’s stop and think about this. You’re a fish. You just traveled thousands of miles, spending time in various tanks with poor water quality. So poor, in fact, that an estimated 70-90% of the other fish didn’t make it. You’ve also been exposed to countless pathogens and may have not eaten for days or even weeks. So, which seems like the least stressful option to you? Dumped in a DT, filled with other fish less than thrilled about your arrival, with whom you must immediately compete for food and territory. Or would you prefer a tank of your very own; so you can rest, eat without competition and be strengthened before joining the DT. I know which option I would choose!

I totally agree with you about the quarantining your fish, only if you put them in a quarantine tank, very similar to your display tank so they have time to get acclimated to their new home, and adjusted to the new type of food they will be eating. If you throw them into a bare bottom quarantine tank, with maybe a piece or two of PVC pipe to hide in, and the water full of chemicals to treat them for some unknown disease, then I totally disagree with your statement. Like you already you said, these fish already had a very stressful trip to us, and we don't need to stress them more by putting them in a bare bottom quarantine tank.

 

[Jay Norris]

This is also where I got that 72 days from. I didn't make it up.

This is from Humblefish with the heading "How to Quarantine"

Humblefish said: ↑
Substrate and rock are best avoided in QT, as those can absorb many medications. However, one or two small pieces of live rock may be added for ammonia control, so long as they are coming from a disease free tank. The live rock will need to be removed once a disease is spotted and before medications are used. Furthermore, the live rock must be considered “contaminated” once exposed to a fish disease, and left in a fallow (fish free) environment for 72 days to starve out any parasites.

I thought the new time frame was 76 days.

 

[Thales]

Here is something found I another Fish Immunity Paper.

GALT includes gastrointestinal mucosa, gills, and skin. These tissues produce mucus containing soluble defense components, such as lysozyme, complement system proteins and immunoglobulins in order to promote the first barrier against pathogen agent. These lymphoid tissues are scattered throughout the mucosa in clusters of defense cells, including macrophages, lymphocytes, mast cells and granulocytes (Georgopoulou and Vernier 1986, Rombout et al. 2010). These cells capture the antigen in order to process and promote immune memory. The liver has the same function as in mammals, of producing humoral compounds such as proteins of the complement system and acute phase proteins of the inflammatory response (Davidson et al. 1997, Salinas et al. 2011).

And:
Eosinophils are distributed by connective tissue, especially in the gastrointestinal tract, gills and bloodstream and provide degranulation when there are parasites infestations.

The tissues and organs that structure the immune system of bony fish are classified as lymphoid, and there is no myeloid classification, such as in mammals, because fish lack bone marrow and lymph nodes. The lymphoid organs are the kidneys (the largest lymphoid organ), thymus, spleen and gut associated lymphoid tissues (GALT), formed during larval development.

To me this means when there are parasites present in the stomach or gastrointestinal tract the tissues produce mucus that contains soluble defense components to promote a barrier against the pathogen agent.
That is where I got that idea from, Or am I reading that incorrectly?​

You are not reading it incorrectly, but you are adding parasites to the paper, when the paper is about 'immunostimulants and prebiotcs', not parasites. Animals don't develop immunity to external parasites by eating those parasites.
​

This has nothing to do with immunity but I found it interesting on Wikipedia:

Although parasites are generally considered to be harmful, the eradication of all parasites would not necessarily be beneficial. Parasites account for as much as or more than half of life's diversity; they perform an important ecological role (by weakening prey) that ecosystems would take some time to adapt to; and without parasites organisms may eventually tend to asexual reproduction, diminishing the diversity of sexually dimorphic traits.[22] Parasites provide an opportunity for the transfer of genetic material between species. On rare, but significant, occasions this may facilitate evolutionary changes that would not otherwise occur, or that would otherwise take even longer.[23]

Yes, are people talking about eradicating all parasites from the world? That would be a terrible idea. I don't think a hobbyist trying to rid their tank of CI is comparable.

 

[Thales]

So poor, in fact, that an estimated 70-90% of the other fish didn’t make it.

Can you share the source us are using for those numbers? Thanks!

 

[Thales]

I have to tip my hat to Paul on this thread. If I was arguing with a noted and extremely well-respected marine biologist and suddenly found myself saying "Well, maybe science is wrong" - I believe I would probably just laugh and throw in the towel.

Me?

 

[Thales]

Someone earlier said something about not wanting to use water or live rock from the display system for the QT system. Do I remember that correctly? Are people interested in discussing this?