The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[MnFish1]

If I’m not mistaken the quotes relate to freshwater ich, which is different than CI (quite a bit).

Worth noting that none of the probiotics have been approved as effective ich treatment in aquaculture to date and the whole field of probiotics is undergoing a bit of a challenge lately with significant question marks to their efficacy. I wonder if the cited study has failed to be repeated?

Let’s also make sure to keep in mind that a lab isolated specifically cultured bacteria vs. anything randomly fed by us is comparing apples and oranges.

I believe that from what I read in the paper - One study showed that mortality from CI dropped from 98% to 0 % (for freshwater ich), another study showed no benefit (when another probiotic was used). Thus it seems that the 'type' of bacteria is important i.e. its not jus giving 'bacteria' in general. They are using high doses of specific bacteria in a food.

 

[MnFish1]

76 days fishless is to remove CI from a DT. Once the fish is removed I guess it would spend 76 days in QT, 14-30 days of which may be medicated.

No need to do that with new fish and it’s not implied.

I know all about why 76 days is chosen for a fallow tank. Paul has also chosen 76 days as his definition for Quarantine - based on Humblefish's article about leaving a tank fallow. To me QT and fallow are 2 different things - which is why I brought up the point in the first place (pages ago)

I think its important to make sure everyone is talking about the same thing. Since this article is about Quarantine vs Paul's method - I assume Quarantine (for the purpose of this article) means when you add new fish etc to an established system.

Earlier in the thread I said something like QT is a very broad term some people do it for 2 weeks, some 4 weeks, some use copper, etc. So I asked Paul 'what is his definition of QT - he replied 72 days'. Which has been amended now to 76 days (which of course is the time to leave a tank Fallow).... Strictly speaking - when the fish from a fallow tank are placed in a treatment or hospital tank they are in QT (for 76 days) - but (unless I'm completely mistaken) - I dont see what that version/definition of Quarantine has to do with this article.

 

[Matt Carden]

CI attacks fish through the GALT? I don't think that they do, but would love to be wrong.
I asked specifically about CI because the that is what most of the discussion in this thread has seemed to be about, and was interested in getting to specifics to increase practical utility of the conversation.

Unless I misunderstand the scientific article quote used in @Paul B post, the mucus is part of the GALT. Parasites have to get through the mucus to attach to the fish. The parasites are exposed to the mucus the entire time they are feeding on the fish.

 

[Thales]

Unless I misunderstand the scientific article quote used in @Paul B post, the mucus is part of the GALT. Parasites have to get through the mucus to attach to the fish. The parasites are exposed to the mucus the entire time they are feeding on the fish.

Internal parasites. External parasites usually get safely digested when eaten. There is mucus in GALT but is is not the same as, and not connected to, the mucus on the skin of the fish. Different mucouses.

 

[MnFish1]

Unless I misunderstand the scientific article quote used in @Paul B post, the mucus is part of the GALT. Parasites have to get through the mucus to attach to the fish. The parasites are exposed to the mucus the entire time they are feeding on the fish.

No - mucus is the first layer of defense in the intestine. Then the cells that take in nutrients and other stuff - then behind those is the Galt, i.e., 'gut associated lymphoid tissue' - ie plasma cells and other lymphocytes. CI does not feed in the intestines - so feeding CI doesn't cause immunity (as far as I've seen) - at least not in the amounts that one would expect to find randomly on a piece of raw clam - or inside 'fish guts'

 

[atoll]

What I have not seen discussed on here is how CI could likely kill it's host. The parasite on the body is what people readily see but its not what you see but rather what you don't and that being the parasite tucked neatly away in the gills. The fish is most likely to die by asphyxiation caused by the accumulation of the parasites in the gills cutting off/reducing oxygen getting through. Some may recall I use Oxydator's which I believe is a great help with any new introduction suffering any level of stress to get over the stress period but also if there are parasites such as CI in the gills helping the fish to receive the oxygen it needs. I consider the use of Oxydator's akin to putting an oxygen mask on the fish. I know too much oxygen can also kill a fish however, unless you go to the extreme with a very high % of peroxide an Oxydator will not reach such dangerous levels of O2. I and many others have noticed one or more of the following, increases in colour and/or vitality in some of our fish when Oxydator's are present. Back to CI and Oxydators I have known people to have fish suffering from CI to to help cure the fish without medication and to put an Oxydator in the tank which appeared to help the fish breathe easier abd help it to recover. Of course the fish must also be feeding or start feeding. Now I have not done extensive research so you can consider the above anecdotal but to me I see the use of Oxydator's in the fight to help the fish rid itself of CI a valuable tool in the fight.

 

[MnFish1]

What I have not seen discussed on here is how CI could likely kill it's host. The parasite on the body is what people readily see but its not what you see but rather what you don't and that being the parasite tucked neatly away in the gills. The fish is most likely to die by asphyxiation caused by the accumulation of the parasites in the gills cutting off/reducing oxygen getting through. Some may recall I use Oxydator's which I believe is a great help with any new introduction suffering any level of stress to get over the stress period but also if there are parasites such as CI in the gills helping the fish to receive the oxygen it needs. I consider the use of Oxydator's akin to putting an oxygen mask on the fish. I know too much oxygen can also kill a fish however, unless you go to the extreme with a very high % of peroxide an Oxydator will not reach such dangerous levels of O2. I and many others have noticed one or more of the following, increases in colour and/or vitality in some of our fish when Oxydator's are present. Back to CI and Oxydators I have known people to have fish suffering from CI to to help cure the fish without medication and to put an Oxydator in the tank which appeared to help the fish breathe easier abd help it to recover. Of course the fish must also be feeding or start feeding. Now I have not done extensive research so you can consider the above anecdotal but to me I see the use of Oxydator's in the fight to help the fish rid itself of CI a valuable tool in the fight.

I was looking at one - they seem fairly compact. Can you describe how they work (ie. is a pump included, do they sit in the sump - or need a dry shelf, etc). What is the liquid part is it just H2()2. Unfortunately they are also backordered

 

[Thales]

What I have not seen discussed on here is how CI could likely kill it's host. The parasite on the body is what people readily see but its not what you see but rather what you don't and that being the parasite tucked neatly away in the gills. The fish is most likely to die by asphyxiation caused by the accumulation of the parasites in the gills cutting off/reducing oxygen getting through. Some may recall I use Oxydator's which I believe is a great help with any new introduction suffering any level of stress to get over the stress period but also if there are parasites such as CI in the gills helping the fish to receive the oxygen it needs. I consider the use of Oxydator's akin to putting an oxygen mask on the fish. I know too much oxygen can also kill a fish however, unless you go to the extreme with a very high % of peroxide an Oxydator will not reach such dangerous levels of O2. I and many others have noticed one or more of the following, increases in colour and/or vitality in some of our fish when Oxydator's are present. Back to CI and Oxydators I have known people to have fish suffering from CI to to help cure the fish without medication and to put an Oxydator in the tank which appeared to help the fish breathe easier abd help it to recover. Of course the fish must also be feeding or start feeding. Now I have not done extensive research so you can consider the above anecdotal but to me I see the use of Oxydator's in the fight to help the fish rid itself of CI a valuable tool in the fight.

Thank you so much for that post. Really helpful!

 

[atoll]

I was looking at one - they seem fairly compact. Can you describe how they work (ie. is a pump included, do they sit in the sump - or need a dry shelf, etc). What is the liquid part is it just H2()2. Unfortunately they are also backordered

You can find a description on how they work here.
www.aquaristikshop.com/aquaristic/Soechting-Oxydator-A/216005/
I have been using Oxydator's for around 30 years now. No pumps no electricity no controller as such. They run on Hydrogen peroxide and use catalysts to convert the peroxide into its component parts. I have written a lot on here about then and my experiences using them on here. There is a thread which has been running for sometime. There is also a FB Aquarium oxydator users group with lots of info.

 

[atoll]

Thank you so much for that post. Really helpful!

Your welcome, check out my post below.

 

[Matt Carden]

No - mucus is the first layer of defense in the intestine. Then the cells that take in nutrients and other stuff - then behind those is the Galt, i.e., 'gut associated lymphoid tissue' - ie plasma cells and other lymphocytes. CI does not feed in the intestines - so feeding CI doesn't cause immunity (as far as I've seen) - at least not in the amounts that one would expect to find randomly on a piece of raw clam - or inside 'fish guts'

This quote is from @Paul B post in which he is quoting. I see nowhere in the entire post or in this section I quoted that it says there are two separate mucus systems. Are you seriously on here just to fight everything that Paul or anyone that supports Paul's ideas says?! You really need to stop! You don't know what your talking about! You don't reference any scientific material yourself! You take parts of what people say out of context or just simply falsely state conclusions that just simply aren't true or weren't at all said!

 

[Matt Carden]

There are a few members active on this thread who have the knowledge and experience to debate intelligently with @Paul B about his method. Can we please leave the debate to people who are as such. All you are doing by arguing unintelligently against this method is making it impossible for anyone reading this thread trying to learn something from doing so!

 

[Thales]

This quote is from @Paul B post in which he is quoting. I see nowhere in the entire post or in this section I quoted that it says there are two separate mucus systems. Are you seriously on here just to fight everything that Paul or anyone that supports Paul's ideas says?! You really need to stop! You don't know what your talking about! You don't reference any scientific material yourself! You take parts of what people say out of context or just simply falsely state conclusions that just simply aren't true or weren't at all said!

Dude. Relax. The reason it doesn’t say anything about two mucus systems is because the paper is not talking about skin. Take a minute and google GALT and you will see that he is right.

 

[Jay Norris]

If you buy a fish from an LFS - how many of them keep their fish in a similar tank? If you buy fish from a wholesaler - how many wholesalers keep their fish in such a system?

It doesn't matter how the wholesaler or LFS keeps their fish, they are not staying in their stores or warehouses for 14 days or more for a proper quarantine, so I believe it is best to keep the fish you are going to quarantine for an extended period of time in a tank, with good live rock, filtration, and food, also maybe lighting. You want your fish to be as stress free as possible, as they already have gone thru enough stress on their way to you to last a lifetime.

 

[Jay Norris]

Great. Now the article is on RR front page. Just what an unsuspecting newbie needed to read

Yes it is, there is a lot of good information in this article.

 

[Ardeus]

I still think that the main lead to understand what's going on in Paul's tank is not in the existing fish in the tank or what they eat but in what happens to the new fish.

Paul throws them in there, some of them are sick and they get better in just a few days.

These fish are sick and stressed and it's not the food that gets them better, there's no time for that. The tank has something there keeping the diseases in check.

 

[Matt Carden]

Dude. Relax. The reason it doesn’t say anything about two mucus systems is because the paper is not talking about skin. Take a minute and google GALT and you will see that he is right.

I wasn't referring to you in my post cause you seem to know what your talking about.

 

[Thales]

I wasn't referring to you in my post cause you seem to know what your talking about.

He said the same thing I said.

 

[Thales]

I still think that the main lead to understand what's going on in Paul's tank is not in the existing fish in the tank or what they eat but in what happens to the new fish.

Paul throws them in there, some of them are sick and they get better in just a few days.

These fish are sick and stressed and it's not the food that gets them better, there's no time for that. The tank has something there keeping the diseases in check.

This is where documentation becomes important. We all know our memories are goofy, so some actual data of what fish were added when and how they did would be really helpful.

 

[MaccaPopEye]

GALT includes gastrointestinal mucosa, gills, and skin. These tissues produce mucus containing soluble defense components, such as lysozyme, complement system proteins and immunoglobulins in order to promote the first barrier against pathogen agent. These lymphoid tissues are scattered throughout the mucosa in clusters of defense cells, including macrophages, lymphocytes, mast cells and granulocytes (Georgopoulou and Vernier 1986, Rombout et al. 2010). These cells capture the antigen in order to process and promote immune memory. The liver has the same function as in mammals, of producing humoral compounds such as proteins of the complement system and acute phase proteins of the inflammatory response (Davidson et al. 1997, Salinas et al. 2011).

In fish the gastrointestinal system is not connected to their skin either

There is mucus in GALT but is is not the same as, and not connected to, the mucus on the skin of the fish. Different mucouses.

Sorry if it's a silly question, I'd just like to understand it a bit more. Both @MnFish1 and @Thales you say that the skin & skin mucus is not a part of the GALT.

But @Paul B's post specifically states: "GALT includes gastrointestinal mucosa, gills, and skin". I haven't read the study he references but to me that sounds like fish may be different to other animals and their GALT is connected to the mucous produced by the skin?

Even if it isn't connected to the skin it also states the gills are a part of the GALT, which is where I thought CI (and velvet) end up really causing the most harm to the fish as they infest the gills and stop the fish from being able to breath? So if at the least the gills are a part of the GALT maybe there could be a connection?