The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)
- Thread starter Paul B
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Rock- Wouldn’t use rock from dt or even dry rock for qt. The aragonite absorption of meds will interfere with properly treating.
DT water this would depend on the systems at play imo. If fish are going in qt because of an outbreak in the dt i would use fresh mixed salt water. This way the parasite load started lower. If the dt has always had all of its wet items quarantined properly see no reason not to use dt water. I use sponge from the dt to seed the qt.
EmdeReef
2500 Club Member
I don’t think water matters tbh especially in a medicated tank but rocks (in large quantity) can make maintaining the therapeutic dose of certain medications difficult.
Matt Carden
Valuable Member
This post seems to me to be the science behind most of Paul's assertions about fish immunity through exposure. The parasites are attacking the fish through the GALT which is what is being exposed to CI when the fish eats the CI. This is not the same as a human eating lice and being immune to lice. In humans the Gastrointestinal system is not connected to our scalp through a mucus membrane. Also I don't recall in the article where Paul specifically speaks of CI.Here is something found I another Fish Immunity Paper.
GALT includes gastrointestinal mucosa, gills, and skin. These tissues produce mucus containing soluble defense components, such as lysozyme, complement system proteins and immunoglobulins in order to promote the first barrier against pathogen agent. These lymphoid tissues are scattered throughout the mucosa in clusters of defense cells, including macrophages, lymphocytes, mast cells and granulocytes (Georgopoulou and Vernier 1986, Rombout et al. 2010). These cells capture the antigen in order to process and promote immune memory. The liver has the same function as in mammals, of producing humoral compounds such as proteins of the complement system and acute phase proteins of the inflammatory response (Davidson et al. 1997, Salinas et al. 2011).
And:
Eosinophils are distributed by connective tissue, especially in the gastrointestinal tract, gills and bloodstream and provide degranulation when there are parasites infestations.
The tissues and organs that structure the immune system of bony fish are classified as lymphoid, and there is no myeloid classification, such as in mammals, because fish lack bone marrow and lymph nodes. The lymphoid organs are the kidneys (the largest lymphoid organ), thymus, spleen and gut associated lymphoid tissues (GALT), formed during larval development.
To me this means when there are parasites present in the stomach or gastrointestinal tract the tissues produce mucus that contains soluble defense components to promote a barrier against the pathogen agent.
That is where I got that idea from, Or am I reading that incorrectly?
This is the article:
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Anais da Academia Brasileira de Ciências
Print version ISSN 0001-3765
An. Acad. Bras. Ciênc. vol.86 no.3 Rio de Janeiro Sept. 2014 Epub Sep 09, 2014
http://dx.doi.org/10.1590/0001-3765201420130159
Agrarian Sciences
Fish Immunology. The modification and manipulation of the innate immune system: Brazilian studies
JAQUELINE D. BILLER-TAKAHASHI 1
ELISABETH C. URBINATI 2
This has nothing to do with immunity but I found it interesting on Wikipedia:
Although parasites are generally considered to be harmful, the eradication of all parasites would not necessarily be beneficial. Parasites account for as much as or more than half of life's diversity; they perform an important ecological role (by weakening prey) that ecosystems would take some time to adapt to; and without parasites organisms may eventually tend to asexual reproduction, diminishing the diversity of sexually dimorphic traits.[22] Parasites provide an opportunity for the transfer of genetic material between species. On rare, but significant, occasions this may facilitate evolutionary changes that would not otherwise occur, or that would otherwise take even longer.[23]
Thales
Valuable Member
CI attacks fish through the GALT? I don't think that they do, but would love to be wrong.
I asked specifically about CI because the that is what most of the discussion in this thread has seemed to be about, and was interested in getting to specifics to increase practical utility of the conversation.
MnFish1
10K Club member
Here is something found I another Fish Immunity Paper.
GALT includes gastrointestinal mucosa, gills, and skin. These tissues produce mucus containing soluble defense components, such as lysozyme, complement system proteins and immunoglobulins in order to promote the first barrier against pathogen agent. These lymphoid tissues are scattered throughout the mucosa in clusters of defense cells, including macrophages, lymphocytes, mast cells and granulocytes (Georgopoulou and Vernier 1986, Rombout et al. 2010). These cells capture the antigen in order to process and promote immune memory. The liver has the same function as in mammals, of producing humoral compounds such as proteins of the complement system and acute phase proteins of the inflammatory response (Davidson et al. 1997, Salinas et al. 2011).
And:
Eosinophils are distributed by connective tissue, especially in the gastrointestinal tract, gills and bloodstream and provide degranulation when there are parasites infestations.
The tissues and organs that structure the immune system of bony fish are classified as lymphoid, and there is no myeloid classification, such as in mammals, because fish lack bone marrow and lymph nodes. The lymphoid organs are the kidneys (the largest lymphoid organ), thymus, spleen and gut associated lymphoid tissues (GALT), formed during larval development.
To me this means when there are parasites present in the stomach or gastrointestinal tract the tissues produce mucus that contains soluble defense components to promote a barrier against the pathogen agent.
That is where I got that idea from, Or am I reading that incorrectly?
This is the article:
Services on Demand
Journal
Article
Indicators
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Anais da Academia Brasileira de Ciências
Print version ISSN 0001-3765
An. Acad. Bras. Ciênc. vol.86 no.3 Rio de Janeiro Sept. 2014 Epub Sep 09, 2014
http://dx.doi.org/10.1590/0001-3765201420130159
Agrarian Sciences
Fish Immunology. The modification and manipulation of the innate immune system: Brazilian studies
JAQUELINE D. BILLER-TAKAHASHI 1
ELISABETH C. URBINATI 2
This has nothing to do with immunity but I found it interesting on Wikipedia:
Although parasites are generally considered to be harmful, the eradication of all parasites would not necessarily be beneficial. Parasites account for as much as or more than half of life's diversity; they perform an important ecological role (by weakening prey) that ecosystems would take some time to adapt to; and without parasites organisms may eventually tend to asexual reproduction, diminishing the diversity of sexually dimorphic traits.[22] Parasites provide an opportunity for the transfer of genetic material between species. On rare, but significant, occasions this may facilitate evolutionary changes that would not otherwise occur, or that would otherwise take even longer.[23]
It means that if a fish eats a parasite (that normally infects the GI tract - that the GI tract has cells and chemicals that can kill it. It doesn't mean that it promotes or causes immunity to everything foreign that enters the GI tract.
MnFish1
10K Club member
If you buy a fish from an LFS - how many of them keep their fish in a similar tank? If you buy fish from a wholesaler - how many wholesalers keep their fish in such a system?
MnFish1
10K Club member
This is also where I got that 72 days from. I didn't make it up.
This is from Humblefish with the heading "How to Quarantine"
Humblefish said: ↑
Substrate and rock are best avoided in QT, as those can absorb many medications. However, one or two small pieces of live rock may be added for ammonia control, so long as they are coming from a disease free tank. The live rock will need to be removed once a disease is spotted and before medications are used. Furthermore, the live rock must be considered “contaminated” once exposed to a fish disease, and left in a fallow (fish free) environment for 72 days to starve out any parasites.
That does not say that FISH need to be in QT for 72 days... - It says that rock used in a QT tank has to be fish free for 72 days (it could also be sterilized, etc) but then it wouldn't be live rock - This quote says nothing about the length fish should spend in a QT tank.
MnFish1
10K Club member
76 days is the time that a tank with known CI should be left fallow to maximize the chance that all CI has died out. It is not he the recommended time to put a fish into a QT tank
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MnFish1
10K Club member
Yes
I would seem to me that if you have a 'clean' tank you 'could' put stuff from that tank into a QT tank - but my guess is that its not recommended as you can't be sure that its really 'clean' ie free of parasites
Thales
Valuable Member
Gotcha. I do this with water/rock from the system the fish is going to be going into, not random tanks. If the fish is going to go into that tank, I think it is ok for the fish to be exposed to any pathogens that are in that tank.
Though we have used rock from tanks that haven't shown pathogens or disease or have had no new fish added in the last year.
EmdeReef
2500 Club Member
If I’m not mistaken the quotes relate to freshwater ich, which is different than CI (quite a bit).
Worth noting that none of the probiotics have been approved as effective ich treatment in aquaculture to date and the whole field of probiotics is undergoing a bit of a challenge lately with significant question marks to their efficacy. I wonder if the cited study has failed to be repeated?
Let’s also make sure to keep in mind that a lab isolated specifically cultured bacteria vs. anything randomly fed by us is comparing apples and oranges.
EmdeReef
2500 Club Member
For example, Rocks and sand can absorb copper and antibiotics which can later leech in the system. That may not be an issue in a large system but in smaller systems is a potential problem.
MnFish1
10K Club member
It is science - but it doesnt at all suggest or support Pauls article. Eating a parasite does not cause or improve immunity to that parasite (unless its a parasite that attacks the GI tract). Humans also have lymphoid tissue throughout their intestines (and eosinophils, and GALT (Gut associated lymphoid tissue). And there are no scientists recommending that we feed malaria to people in order to induce immunity to it (or Lice - which are parasites) etc.
I think you are incorrect - its exactly the same - both 'lice' and 'CI' are external parasites - which mean they externally infect their host. If eaten they are digested. In fish the gastrointestinal system is not connected to their skin either... The sentence you've written doesnt make sense - so maybe Im misreading what you meant.
So what is Paul talking about if not CI? The title of the article is avoiding quarantine. The things people quarantine for are parasitic diseases - so yes - he is talking about CI(and velvet, and brook, etc). The reason much of the discussion is focused on CI - is it is the topic on which much of the research has been done. And is a major parasite in fish farming, etc - so a lot of research has been done on CI and fish immunity.
MnFish1
10K Club member
Yes- this is the time a tank needs to be left 'fallow' - but in that case aren't the fish going into a hospital tank (which I guess is kind of a QT tank) - it doesnt suggest (or does it) that if you buy a new fish from an LFS that you need to have it in a QT tank for 76 days. That is the impression that's being left here - that new fish need to be QT'd for 76 days... Im not disagreeing with 76 days - just want to make sure what you're talking about because to me a 'fallow period' is different than a 'QT' itself. (Unless you're QTing rock lol or perhaps Coral in a fishes tank to ensure they have no CI attached)
EmdeReef
2500 Club Member
76 days fishless is to remove CI from a DT. Once the fish is removed I guess it would spend 76 days in QT, 14-30 days of which may be medicated.
No need to do that with new fish and it’s not implied.
DrewBrees713
Well-Known Member
Why subject your wet friends to harsh meds? Strictly for ich , TTM is just as effective, minus the side effects, if done correctly.
For anyone interested in the TTM, please get a couple 10g tanks. I dont recommend anything smaller ( per fish ,per tank) as ammonia tends to build up quickly in such small confinement.
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