MnFish1
10K Club member
Thanks - so then it sits in the sump - or wherever - no pump, etc - just releases O2 into the water?
The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)
- Thread starter Paul B
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MnFish1
10K Club member
NO clue what you're talking about - sorry. If you want to criticize something that I wrote - quote it so I know what your referring to. As to the article - What you said was false. Paul's interpretation of the article was false. But - I dont 'need to stop'anything. Take a deep breath. I actually do know what I'm talking about. LOL Just because Paul misquoted part of the article doesn't mean what I said was 'wrong'. It means you and Paul are not familiar with Gastrointestinal physiology. If I took something out of context - again - please quote it so I know what you mean -if I did-I'm happy to apologize.
MnFish1
10K Club member
NO disagreement - I dont QT - so it makes no difference to me. I was just pointing out that many wholesalers keep fish in this type of tank - as do many LFS - at least in this area. And my guess is that the turn-around for fish in both places might be a fair bit longer than you might think.
MnFish1
10K Club member
I think you're correct. The article, though focuses on adding bacteria ,live food, etc.
MnFish1
10K Club member
You're right - the ariticle Paul quoted said that - but it was taken out of context - but I can see how people are 'confused'. Thanks for asking an valid question.
In short, all of the mucosal surfaces of fish (gills, skin, intestine, etc) have lymphoid tissue. This is called the MALT. GALT specifically is the Gut Associated Lymphoid Tissue (it lies underneath the mucus and cellular layer in the intestines. This article explains it. They are separate defense systems (not connected) - The gills are not connected to the Gut, The skin is not connected to the gut. All combined (all of the mucosal surfaces) are part of the immune system of the fish.:
Teleost fish possess an adaptive immune system associated with each of their mucosal body surfaces. Evidence obtained from mucosal vaccination and mucosal infection studies reveal that adaptive immune responses take place at the different mucosal surfaces of teleost. The main mucosa-associated lymphoid tissues (MALT) of teleosts are the gut-associated lymphoid tissue (GALT), skin-associated lymphoid tissue (SALT), the gill-associated lymphoid tissue (GIALT) and the recently discovered nasopharynx-associated lymphoid tissue (NALT).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26274978
Matt Carden
Valuable Member
Its pretty sad that I now have to unwatch a thread that I am interested in. @Paul B see you out there on another thread. I will be detailing my progress with my own adaptation of Paul's method on my build thread https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/matts-natural-reef.488794/
I go forward on Faith that this method is the way that will work for me.
I go forward on Faith that this method is the way that will work for me.
Thales
Valuable Member
Dude really? You are publically saying that you don’t like how a thread has gone? And that you are leaving it - even though it has stuff in that that interests you? One that has good, productive and civil discussion going on? Seems weird, but you do you. BTW, if you respond, I don’t think I’ll ever be able to take you seriously again.
Thales
Valuable Member
I apologize for my last post. That kind of “I’m taking a ball and going you you bad people” kinds of posts make me nutty. I’m fine with people bailing for any reason - it’s the internet right - but announcing it and running away seems so weird. Just stop posting.
MaccaPopEye
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Thanks for the response. I don't really have the time to read either article in full but I did have a look at both quickly.
In the one Paul linked I read the section titled "The Ontogeny of the Immune System" to try and get some context and his quote doesn't seem to be out of context to me.
The first paragraph lists the lymphoid organs as the kidneys, thymus, spleen and GALT. The below paragraphs then go on to discuss each of those organs. The last paragraph discusses the GLAT, and opens with the sentence "GALT includes gastrointestinal mucosa, gills, and skin." Which sounds pretty deliberate and clear to me.
So Pauls quote seems to be in context as this article is specifying that the gills and skin are considered to be a part of the GALT. If that article is wrong or not is another matter though.
In the article you linked I had a quick skim of the section titled "General Aspects of Teleost MALT Anatomy" and the part that really stood out to me was:
"Stimulation of one MALT often results in responses in other distant MALT. Whereas some level of inter-connectivity exists among teleost MALT, the molecular basis for a “common mucosal immune response” at multiple sites following stimulation or vaccination at one site remains to be studied"
To me this means that even if the skin mucous is a part of the skin-associated lymphoid tissue (SALT) and is separate to the GALT, they are both still a part of the overall mucosa-associated lymphoid tissues (MALT). So while it may not be proven, Paul's theory is a possibility that was also considered by the authors of the study you linked.
Biology really isn't my strong suit so I could have severely misinterpreted a lot of content in the articles, but it seems to me that while what Paul is saying probably shouldn't be considered a fact, it should be considered a theory that isn't completely baseless
EJReef
Active Member
I introduced a fish to my DT without QT and it infected all the other established fish with Ich (including the clownfish). I would not advise skipping quarantining based on my experience.
Jay Norris
Active Member
Well the content of this thread has been repeated so many times it's getting hard to stay interested. Like I have said before, Paul has a way of keeping a successful aquarium for a very long time, and who is to say if it is the right way or wrong way to keep his aquarium. Thales you have a very successful aquarium, how long it has been running I don't know, and it is a different way then Paul's , so all this proves to me is you both have a very good way to keeping a successful aquarium. I also have a very successful and long time running aquarium, using a lot of Paul's technique, and some of yours, so now we have three ways to run an aquarium, and what do I derive from all this, their are at least three ways to run successful aquariums, and I am sure there are many other ways to run successful aquariums. So after reading all these informative pages of the article . I am taking my ball an going home. Now lets keep this very informative article going so we may be able to find even more ways to run a very successful aquarium. I vote this to be a must read for all new aquarist on this forum.
. Now lets keep this very informative article going so we may be able to find even more ways to run a very successful aquarium. I vote this to be a must read for all new aquarist on this forum.
Jay Norris
Active Member
Hi, how long has your system been up and running? Did you use live rock, sand or use NSW, and what type of food do you feed your fish?
Jody Grimmer
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The other way to run a reef tank (No Quarantine)
I was asked by my friend Humblefish to start a thread on my practices of running a tank with no quarantine, hospital tanks, medications, dipping or almost anything else.
It is "not" just to take a fish from a store and drop it in your reef because that fish will probably die. You may not see many spots on fish in a store because just about all stores use medications in their tanks to suppress the parasites. They have to because they get new fish all the time from all over the world and they can't change all the water and sterilize their tanks in between shipments. But all fish are infected in a store and even in the sea. They swim in a soup of parasites, viruses and bacteria, some good, some not so good.
In the sea those pathogens are kept in check by each other as viruses prey on parasites and bacteria and other forces such as things exuded from corals and tend to keep everything in check. Of course they all prey on fish.
But fish have been around almost as long as those things and they evolved long ago to live in harmony with all of them. Fish eat parasites with every meal and those parasites are processed in the fishes kidney among other places and that causes the fish to exude antiparisitic and antibacterial properties in their slime. They constantly do this and it keeps parasites and bacteria from killing the fish even though some parasites will get through to sample some fish flesh.
Anyway, that is the basis for my method that I slowly learned starting in about 1973 when I had to keep fish in copper continuously as we all did. (20 pennies to the gallon) Our tanks were not reefs, we fed flakes, changed the water to much and took out the rocks and dead corals to bleach them whenever they turned green which was almost weekly. The fish were always stressed and it was hard to keep even damsels.
Then I started feeding things other than flakes, things like frozen clams, pieces of fish and live blackworms. In 7 weeks my blue devils spawned and kept spawning for 7 years. Spawning damsels is no great Whop but in those days few people could keep them alive for a few weeks.
I gradually learned that bacteria and parasites would not kill my fish as long as I didn't medicate them. It was backward thinking but remember there was no internet and I didn't even know anyone with a salt tank so I was on my own.
When I added a fish it normally would get spots and sometimes die, but most of the time the spots receded and the fish was fine and didn't get sick when I added a new fish.
That was how I learned my method which is not really a method but a lack of a method.
With my method you can not quarantine because that short circuits the process. I actually want parasites and bacteria as that is what the fish was swimming with in the sea a week before.
I just put the fish in my tank and normally the fish starts eating right away and is fine. About half the time the fish will show a few spots but they are very few and disappear in a day or two. Yes they finished their life cycle on that fish and dropped off to infect something else, but they can't because those fish are constantly exposed to parasites so they are immune.
The things I do “not” do is quarantine.
I do not ever feed dry foods such as flakes or pellets as those foods are sterile.
I do not suck every bit of detritus out of my tank
I do however always feed something with live bacteria in it such as frozen foods.
I feed whole foods with guts such as clams, mysis, mussels and I use LRS foods which is a commercial food which I consider the best. But I still want to give the fish something that I know has living bacteria in it. I try to feed a few times a week some live worms but sometimes I can’t. Where I live now I can’t get them but I do raise live whiteworms which live in dirt. I bought a few of them years ago and that batch is still living and reproducing. I like the worms because of the living bacteria in their guts and the dirt they are living in. Some people that have immune tanks never use live worms so they may not be necessary, but I use them when I can. These things need not be fed every day, but at least occasionally. But all foods should have bacteria in it and if you feed nothing but commercial food, I am not sure how much living bacteria is in that because you don’t know how old it is or what temperature it was stored at.
If you have access to a salt water beach, collect a little mud and sprinkle it around the tank. That is for bacterial diversity. If you can’t get that, you can use garden soil with no pesticides or fertilizer.
(I did not invent that, it was “Robert Straughn” The Father of salt water fish keeping.)
The idea is that I want parasites living in the tank along with the fish. They will keep reproducing and trying to infect fish but they will fail.
I know the argument that there is much more water in the sea than in a tank and the parasites are more numerous. But that is of no consequence because the fishes immune system will get as strong as it needs to be to repel parasites and the more parasites there are, the stronger the immune system.
If you quarantine fish, there will be nothing for the fish to become immune to and any slight infection will crash the tank. Fish are not delicate creatures that need coddling and they almost never get sick. They have a fantastic immune system as long as we don’t try to short circuit it.
I can’t remember the last time I lost a fish to disease but it was probably in the 80s. Virtually all of my fish only die of old age or jumping out. I do lose fish due to my stupidity like if I buy something that I can’t properly feed like shrimpfish, twin spot gobies, orange spotted filefish etc. My tank is not set up for those fish and I should not buy them. But everything else, with no exception live long enough for me to get tired of them and I give them away or they die of old age.
I do not like clownfish but one day about 27 years ago I bought a baby of what I thought was a red hawkfish. It turned out to be a Fireclown and I still have it. She also spawns a few times a week as all my paired fish do as all healthy fish carry eggs all the time.
If you have a tank full of quarantined fish, I am not sure how you could get those fish immune because that quarantining may have destroyed the immune system of those fish. It would be a long process because the fish would have to be infected, and then cured for them to become immune and you may lose some fish.
It would be much easier to start an immune tank from the start. Remember, if you see some parasites, think of that as a good thing and not something that you need to dip or treat. Yes, you may lost some fish in the beginning but your fish will become immune to just about everything and you will never need medications or disease forums. Many fish die in quarantine or right after so that is also not a panacea.
I did not mention parameters because IMO they are not that important for fish health. Corals, yes, but not fish. My nitrates were 160 for years and I never had a fish die and they continued to spawn.
This is my method which has worked well for decades and I never lose fish to disease which is something I think we all strive for.
Thank you!! Makes much more sense to me! I don’t wanna have a medicated tank. Granted I am a newbie and will live and learn.
EJReef
Active Member
This tank has been running 7 months (200 gallons). Some of the rock is at least 20 years old and was originally “live rock.” No sand and not using ocean water.
Scott Campbell
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I agree something is suppressing parasites and disease in Paul's tank. I just don't believe the mechanism is purposefully adding extra parasites and diseased fish. As a working protocol, that seems like a really bad idea.
Folks talk about the effectiveness of UV lights and ozone in suppressing harmful organisms - but in my opinion, nothing beats a tank full of filter feeders. I'll take a 1000 tube worms over ozone any day of the week. In my less than informed opinion, Paul's likely huge number of sponges and tube worms are keeping his fish largely free of parasites and disease. If I were writing Paul's article, I would hype filter feeders as a secret weapon consumer of parasites and set aside this odd theory of adding parasites to be rid of parasites.
MnFish1
10K Club member
I agree with you - its confusing - and its difficult to determine exactly what the author is referring to - in either article. And without seeing reading other articles that refute or confirm these - it makes it even more difficult
I would say it this way.
1. There is no evidence suggesting that a fish eating 'CI' is going to make it immune to CI.
2. There is no evidence that feeding live foods makes it more likely for fish to become immune to 'CI' (except that live foods may have a nutritional benefit)
3. There is no evidence that feeding random bacteria (ie fish guts) improves fish immunity - and thus improves the immune system.
4. In the last xx pages - we have no evidence that Quarantine 'destroys a fishes immune system'.
5. There is no evidence (that even if you could feed CI and make a fish immune) that the amount of CI or other parasites present in live white worms, clams, mussels, fish guts or any other recommended food is enough to produce immunity to CI (except that feeding good food improves the immune system in general -i.e. killed/irradiated/sterile is equivalent)
6. There is no evidence that the average aquarist should not 'check parameters' or 'ignore parameters' in their tanks.
There is evidence that:
1. Feeding specific probiotics to freshwater fish can cause immunity to ich in trout.
2. Feeding other specific probiotics to freshwater fish does not cause immunity to ich in trout
3. Feeding certain DnA products to farmed fish (by mouth) can produce an immune response - but does not prevent infection with CI in marine fish (groupers - I think)
4. There may be cross reactivity between mucosal immunity (gill/nasopharyngeal/skin/gut) - but this does not necessarily imply that swallowing CI produces immunity to CI infection.
MnFish1
10K Club member
If only Paul had mentioned that in his article - rather than 50 pages into a discussion. IN other words - I think everyone here who has questions would have accepted this:
I feed my fish natural foods - which I hope are filled with bacteria and parasites because its been shown previously that its possible to improve immunity to skin parasites after they have been eaten based on ..... article and .. article. I dont really know whether this works in my tank - but Its the reason for what I'm doing.
Or - I recommend feeding bacteria loaded foods because there are some articles suggesting that feeding probiotics can prevent freshwater ich. Here is an example of an article that describes this
etc etc etc.
What is interesting is that I have learned (today) a huge amount looking GALT, MALT, etc - and trying to figure out what's really going on. I had no clue about some of these things. And you're absolutely correct - Paul may be completely correct. The published article - however is not )IMHO)
MnFish1
10K Club member
BTW - this is also correct - the key point is - the italics above is a 'theory' - not proven - it is something to be studied. If you look at other animals -though its possible - it is not probable to be true.
1. Feeding a clam in the hope it contains CI - is likely no where near the amount of CI that would need to be ingested to induce 'immunity' (IMHO)
2. I dont know of any 'oral' vaccine for external parasites (in any animal)
3. There is no evidence that feeding random bacteria containing foods - as compared to feeding sterile foods with the same nutritional value - improves the immune system
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