Cryptocaryon and immunity

[MnFish1]

There is a lot of discussion in various threads about QT vs CI management. Please take this poll - you may choose as many choices as you like. Feel free to discuss in the comments....

 

[Mortie31]

Good poll, thankyou, I ticked the something else as well, as well as a few other buttons, as I personly believe fish should be hard picked, seen feeding and observed from a LFS and not mail-ordered, especially if your not going to quarantine (which I don’t).

 

[Thales]

We don't know the answers to most of that, and there is no best treatment.
That said, I like the Transfer Method.

 

[MnFish1]

We don't know the answers to most of that, and there is no best treatment.
That said, I like the Transfer Method.

Thanks - that was part of the point. There is evidence for some of them

 

[Thales]

What is everyone's favorite non anecdotal evidence for CI immunity in reef fishes?

 

[MnFish1]

We don't know the answers to most of that, and there is no best treatment.
That said, I like the Transfer Method.

Best treatment meaning - most effective with the least amount of risk (I've never used it) - but I would vote Chloroquine

 

[Thales]

Best treatment meaning - most effective with the least amount of risk (I've never used it) - but I would vote Chloroquine

For effectiveness and low risk I would vote transfer method.

 

[MnFish1]

What is everyone's favorite non anecdotal evidence for CI immunity in reef fishes?

From: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/FA/FA16400.pdf

Fish that survive a Cryptocaryon infection develop immunity, which can prevent significant disease for up to
6 months (Burgess 1992; Burgess and Matthews 1995). However, these survivors may act as carriers and provide a reservoir for future outbreaks (Colorni and Burgess 1997).

Burgess, P.J. 1992. Cryptocaryon irritans Brown, 1951 (Ciliophora): transmission and immune response in the mullet Chelon labrosus (Risso, 1826). Ph.D. thesis, Univer- sity of Plymouth.

Colorni, A. and P. Burgess. 1997. Cryptocaryon irritansBrown 1951, the cause of “white spot disease” in marine fish: an update. Aquarium Sciences and Conservation, 1: 217–238.

http://scsagr.scsfri.ac.cn/upimg/200853010029.pdf
http://nsgl.gso.uri.edu/hawau/hawauy09002.pdf

 

[Lowell Lemon]

So my major experience with fish disease was not CI but Trichodina. To all outward observations the fish seemed infected with CI and the loss rate was in excess of 50%.
The set up was for a 1650 gallon display aquarium for a client with all Hawaiian endemics including Moorish Idols, Butterflies, Tangs, Trigger fish, Bird Wrasse, Flame Hawkfish, Stripped Squirrel fish and Angelfish. The tank was designed to use Biological, Mechanical, U.V. sterilization, Klase Protein Skimmer and in line chiller/heater. Tank had 4000lbs of seeded live rock set up as a reef structure. Tank was set up and water mixed and circulated at proper salinity for 30 days before the fish arrived. Now the problem.

Mistake #1. The client at the last minute deleted the U.V. and chiller to save cost. Mistake #2. The Architect only provided heated air to the equipment room not the active exhaust fan in the original design to vent waste heat from the MH light systems and heat and moisture from the equipment room pumps and related equipment. Due to lights out during the run in period we had no indication of a heat problem. Tank was stable at 76 degrees and water quality was stable and cycled by the seeded rock. Grand opening was scheduled and the fish transported to the display tank from our holding system. No losses and no apparent problems.

The result after the grand opening was a tank water temperature in the 90's. Higher temperature lower oxygen. Fish started to exhibit symptoms like CI, flashing, white spots and including some with subdural hemorrhaging, loss of appetite, and similar CI symptoms in less than 24 hours the loss rates were climbing. It was then discovered that all we had was heat to the mechanical room and no vent. I used a Veterinarian at Washington State University that had worked in Aquaculture as a resource and paid for decropsy and diagnosis as to the causative agent before treatment. Initial decropsy was inconclusive so we sacrificed a couple very sick fish to find the causative agent. Trichodina is an ectocomensual that becomes pathogenic during issues of poor water quality or other environmental factors (high water temperature, lower oxygen).

Solution: Armed with the diagnosis we convinced the client to add back the Chiller and U.V. as originally designed. No medications were used but the loss rates stopped immediately and we successfully restocked the tank.

What I learned was the onset of similar symptoms to CI does not mean you have CI but you could have a similar symptom via Trichodina or other organisms. Trichodina as I mentioned lives on all fish both saltwater and freshwater and is manifest during higher levels of stress leading to pathogenic levels. With this knowledge I have used filtration methods including U.V. sterilization to dramatically improve and in many cases lower loss rates to less than 3% for multiple stores in the Pacific Northwest. This was a gain in both short and long term holding of fish for sale at these facilities. Prior to the use of these systems the stores averaged 30% or more in losses from acclimation to sale.

This is one reason I am against prophylactic use of chemicals to treat fish unless and until the actual causative agent is known via decropsy or microscopic diagnosis. If I were a physician I would not prescribe until a correct diagnosis was arrived at. It is akin to starting someone on Chemotherapy without a biopsy or other diagnostic certainties as to the type and cause of illness. Many of these prophylactic chemicals do in fact kill the flora and fauna needed to keep the fish healthy in the natural environment. So where are we to go to find the right kind of probiotics to restart their immune system after we destroyed it chemically?

 

[MnFish1]

So my major experience with fish disease was not CI but Trichodina. To all outward observations the fish seemed infected with CI and the loss rate was in excess of 50%.
The set up was for a 1650 gallon display aquarium for a client with all Hawaiian endemics including Moorish Idols, Butterflies, Tangs, Trigger fish, Bird Wrasse, Flame Hawkfish, Stripped Squirrel fish and Angelfish. The tank was designed to use Biological, Mechanical, U.V. sterilization, Klase Protein Skimmer and in line chiller/heater. Tank had 4000lbs of seeded live rock set up as a reef structure. Tank was set up and water mixed and circulated at proper salinity for 30 days before the fish arrived. Now the problem.

Mistake #1. The client at the last minute deleted the U.V. and chiller to save cost. Mistake #2. The Architect only provided heated air to the equipment room not the active exhaust fan in the original design to vent waste heat from the MH light systems and heat and moisture from the equipment room pumps and related equipment. Due to lights out during the run in period we had no indication of a heat problem. Tank was stable at 76 degrees and water quality was stable and cycled by the seeded rock. Grand opening was scheduled and the fish transported to the display tank from our holding system. No losses and no apparent problems.

The result after the grand opening was a tank water temperature in the 90's. Higher temperature lower oxygen. Fish started to exhibit symptoms like CI, flashing, white spots and including some with subdural hemorrhaging, loss of appetite, and similar CI symptoms in less than 24 hours the loss rates were climbing. It was then discovered that all we had was heat to the mechanical room and no vent. I used a Veterinarian at Washington State University that had worked in Aquaculture as a resource and paid for decropsy and diagnosis as to the causative agent before treatment. Initial decropsy was inconclusive so we sacrificed a couple very sick fish to find the causative agent. Trichodina is an ectocomensual that becomes pathogenic during issues of poor water quality or other environmental factors (high water temperature, lower oxygen).

Solution: Armed with the diagnosis we convinced the client to add back the Chiller and U.V. as originally designed. No medications were used but the loss rates stopped immediately and we successfully restocked the tank.

What I learned was the onset of similar symptoms to CI does not mean you have CI but you could have a similar symptom via Trichodina or other organisms. Trichodina as I mentioned lives on all fish both saltwater and freshwater and is manifest during higher levels of stress leading to pathogenic levels. With this knowledge I have used filtration methods including U.V. sterilization to dramatically improve and in many cases lower loss rates to less than 3% for multiple stores in the Pacific Northwest. This was a gain in both short and long term holding of fish for sale at these facilities. Prior to the use of these systems the stores averaged 30% or more in losses from acclimation to sale.

This is one reason I am against prophylactic use of chemicals to treat fish unless and until the actual causative agent is known via decropsy or microscopic diagnosis. If I were a physician I would not prescribe until a correct diagnosis was arrived at. It is akin to starting someone on Chemotherapy without a biopsy or other diagnostic certainties as to the type and cause of illness. Many of these prophylactic chemicals do in fact kill the flora and fauna needed to keep the fish healthy in the natural environment. So where are we to go to find the right kind of probiotics to restart their immune system after we destroyed it chemically?

That’s the time probiotics seem useful is after using a broad spectrum antibiotic imho. Truth be told they will come back on their own. But I think the Larry’s foods are a good start. Secondly antibiotics don’t kill all the intestinal bacteria. But can kill enough to allow pathogens to take hold. That was a great story

 

[EmdeReef]

So my major experience with fish disease was not CI but Trichodina. To all outward observations the fish seemed infected with CI and the loss rate was in excess of 50%.
The set up was for a 1650 gallon display aquarium for a client with all Hawaiian endemics including Moorish Idols, Butterflies, Tangs, Trigger fish, Bird Wrasse, Flame Hawkfish, Stripped Squirrel fish and Angelfish. The tank was designed to use Biological, Mechanical, U.V. sterilization, Klase Protein Skimmer and in line chiller/heater. Tank had 4000lbs of seeded live rock set up as a reef structure. Tank was set up and water mixed and circulated at proper salinity for 30 days before the fish arrived. Now the problem.

Mistake #1. The client at the last minute deleted the U.V. and chiller to save cost. Mistake #2. The Architect only provided heated air to the equipment room not the active exhaust fan in the original design to vent waste heat from the MH light systems and heat and moisture from the equipment room pumps and related equipment. Due to lights out during the run in period we had no indication of a heat problem. Tank was stable at 76 degrees and water quality was stable and cycled by the seeded rock. Grand opening was scheduled and the fish transported to the display tank from our holding system. No losses and no apparent problems.

The result after the grand opening was a tank water temperature in the 90's. Higher temperature lower oxygen. Fish started to exhibit symptoms like CI, flashing, white spots and including some with subdural hemorrhaging, loss of appetite, and similar CI symptoms in less than 24 hours the loss rates were climbing. It was then discovered that all we had was heat to the mechanical room and no vent. I used a Veterinarian at Washington State University that had worked in Aquaculture as a resource and paid for decropsy and diagnosis as to the causative agent before treatment. Initial decropsy was inconclusive so we sacrificed a couple very sick fish to find the causative agent. Trichodina is an ectocomensual that becomes pathogenic during issues of poor water quality or other environmental factors (high water temperature, lower oxygen).

Solution: Armed with the diagnosis we convinced the client to add back the Chiller and U.V. as originally designed. No medications were used but the loss rates stopped immediately and we successfully restocked the tank.

What I learned was the onset of similar symptoms to CI does not mean you have CI but you could have a similar symptom via Trichodina or other organisms. Trichodina as I mentioned lives on all fish both saltwater and freshwater and is manifest during higher levels of stress leading to pathogenic levels. With this knowledge I have used filtration methods including U.V. sterilization to dramatically improve and in many cases lower loss rates to less than 3% for multiple stores in the Pacific Northwest. This was a gain in both short and long term holding of fish for sale at these facilities. Prior to the use of these systems the stores averaged 30% or more in losses from acclimation to sale.

This is one reason I am against prophylactic use of chemicals to treat fish unless and until the actual causative agent is known via decropsy or microscopic diagnosis. If I were a physician I would not prescribe until a correct diagnosis was arrived at. It is akin to starting someone on Chemotherapy without a biopsy or other diagnostic certainties as to the type and cause of illness. Many of these prophylactic chemicals do in fact kill the flora and fauna needed to keep the fish healthy in the natural environment. So where are we to go to find the right kind of probiotics to restart their immune system after we destroyed it chemically?

Fish like many organisms have innate and acquired immunity, it’s slightly more complicated but for the purpose of this discussion let’s keep it simple. Following antibiotic, copper or chloroquine treatment, immunity is suppressed but not “deleted” and fish do not become sterile.

After the treatment is discontinued, immunosuppressive effect of medication goes away after a period of time. Some bacteria and microbes will be also affected but a fish will not become sterile, far from it. Also, antibiotics will not render a QT sterile. There will still be quite a lot of microbial life unaffected. Sterilizing process would require a different protocol.

Thricodinosis IME is pretty uncommon in ornamental fish and tends to be common in overstocked fish farms. Visually it differs from ich, it also has a much simpler lifecycle and is easier to treat but regardless it is successfully treated with a fw or formalin baths or copper. @Humblefish can give us more representative view on this. I guess it’s not impossible that we confuse some secondary bacterial infections?!

In the ideal world yes we would take samples, stain and analyze to properly diagnose. But that’s simply not realistic even for those with proper training.

 

[Humblefish]

Noga lists the following treatments for Trichodinosis:

1. Formalin bath
2. Formalin prolonged immersion
3. Potassium permanganate prolonged immersion
4. Acetic acid bath (freshwater only)
5. Salt bath (freshwater only)
6. Freshwater bath (marine only)
7. Copper prolonged immersion

I would suspect Chloroquine phosphate also kills Trichodina genus ciliates; because CP works on other parasites with a simple direct life cycle.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

You guys miss the part where Tricodina is an ectocomensal that is often benificial to the host. It just becomes pathogenic in poor or crowded water conditions. Primary food source is dead epithelial cells, bacteria and some plankton. In most cases it presents very closely to CI visually. The subdural hemorrhaging is not bacterial but perferation of the fish's cell membrane by the protozoa. It responds very well to correcting the water or environmental conditions that caused the outbreak to start with. I suspect many of the visual diagnosis of CI is possibly Tricodina since every fish has them.

So I believe many people think CI but maybe have Tricodina. This may account for all the claims of clearing without treatment by many on this forum. They may not be seeing CI at all which is possible much less frequent than Tricodina. This is just a possible answer that would take more study and actual diagnosis. Call it my hypothesis if you will. Kind of an educated guess.

 

[Humblefish]

You guys miss the part where Tricodina is an ectocomensal that is often benificial to the host.

It appears there are over 150 different species. Most are harmless/beneficial; some are apparently primary pathogens. But like you said, even those species which are pathogenic usually only become a problem in aquaculture due to poor water quality, high bacterial loads, etc.

But it appears that using copper in QT will also eliminate any pathogenic species.

 

[Paul B]

I found the best treatment for me is copper with Quinicrine hydrochloride (Which I can't get any more so I guess it would be Chloroquine phosphate which I have never tried myself.) All of that in conjunction with a diatom filter.

 

[Jay Norris]

Hi, I think the best way to keep the fish from getting CI in the first place, is to feed very high quality live and frozen foods, if you must quarantine a fish do so in a system similar to you display, and quarantine for as short of a period as possible. The point of my post is to make the fish as stress free as possible, after you collect them from the Ocean or buy them from your LFS, as believe the major reason these fish get sick in the first place is all the stress they go thru from the time they are caught to the time they are put in your tank. For treating fish with chemicals, if I absolutely had to, I would use Chloroquine Phosphate to cure CI, and maybe a Diatom Filter like Paul stated if I could find good one, or if I could not fined a Diatom Filter, a good UV unit.

 

[EmdeReef]

Tricodina through its cycle doesn’t become visible to the naked eye.

I have observed deaths caused by it on fish farms and if anything the resulting symptoms would resemble more closely brooklynella, vibrio, perhaps uronema. Fish flashing and scratching is a common symptom for many ectoparasites.

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

My background and area of study, and what sparked my interest in reefs, is ecology. So I have always gone about designing and managing reefs tanks with respect to the overall ecology moreso than trying to control a whole bunch of factors.

When viewed from the larger ecological perspective, there aren’t really ‘good’ organisms and ‘bad’ organisms...there are just all the players in the game. The ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are valuations determined by our own human biases and emotions.

Most people would think I’m nuts, but I don’t quarantine, medicate, or really even acclimate. Haven’t in 20 years (I do acclimate corals to lighting, but that’s a little different). Want to hear something even more crazy? I don’t even cure live rock when I set a new tank up. Rinse the mud off and in it goes.

Let’s be clear about something: this is a business for me. While living the dream without going broke is a more important goal than amassing profits, profits are still important. The reason I bring that up is that I am not in the business of losing money, and I make a point of not developing habits that kill profits (ie killing everything).

My basis for this approach goes to the larger ecological picture. @Lowell Lemon cited research in the other thread showing that in the ocean, fish exposure to these parasites is essentially constant. Yet, they don’t succumb to them.

I’ve always thought that the overall health of the animal was the determining factor when it came to parasites getting to the point they harm the fish.

I have a lot of thoughts on this (some of them backed up by research) but this post is already too long. But I would say this: I manage 20-some reef tanks, most 150 gal and up, and high fish loads. If anybody can find any signs of parasites in any of my tanks (beyond 1 or 2 spots on a fish or two), I’ll give you a 180 gal reef system for free.

 

[Thales]

I have used pleated micron filters to filter out the free swimming stages of CI. Well, I have used them, and the infections went away over time. I only have anecdote to support this, but the reasoning checks out.
I used nu clear canisters with 25 micron pleated filters, as they get dirty they get more efficient and filter out smaller stuff, so fluffing the sand in the display flocs the filter. Since the free swimming stages are like 18 micron, over a month or two it stands to reason that the filter would be filtering out that size particle. The canister was run off a mag 8, and pulled water directly from, and returned to, the 200 gallon display in which CI was showing up, but catching the fish out would have needed the display to be broken down. This was in conjunction with our vet. CI popped upu twice more in the first month, very few dots, and then didn't show up anymore. This was 4 years ago.
If the fish are healthy and eating and difficult to catch out, this would be my first step.

 

[EmdeReef]

My basis for this approach goes to the larger ecological picture. @Lowell Lemon cited research in the other thread showing that in the ocean, fish exposure to these parasites is essentially constant. Yet, they don’t succumb to them.

With respect, this is simply not factually correct. Comparisons between our tank and the ocean are a stretch at best to begin with. However, fish in the ocean do succumb to parasites in both small and large scale dieoffs. While it is true that by some measures vast majority of fish in the ocean tend to be infected with parasites when caught for surveys. Many parasites, including ich and velvet, have relatively low acute mortality rates in the ocean. In most cases though the assumption is that a sick fish will succumb to predation. We don't know the impact on fish lifespan due to a chronic parasitic infection, but in aquaculture the impact of parasites is studied and deemed severe, even if a fish remains asymptomatic.