These lights are done for good....or are they?
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There will always be a need for reflected lights as long as people have large tanks, live in areas where heat is no issue (most of the US), can do math and/or just have to cover a large area with some good output. Everybody who comes to my house has a hard conversation with themself about what they are doing and a lot of people take the plunge into different lighting. No single type of light is good for everybody - I would even use some LEDs if I ran a tank small enough. 10x $800 dollar units to replace 3 MH over my tank is not a good math equation over bulb costs when they cost the same to run every day. People have been promising the demise of VHO T12 for a decade and they are still made and probably 1/3 of the people around me that have larger tanks still use them since they can do things that T5 cannot even do. When VHOs disappear, then I will worry about MH or T5.
PLEASE EVERYBODY KEEP IN MIND THAT SPECIALTY LIGHTING IS ALWAYS EXEMPT FROM GOVT REGULATIONS.
To be fair, most of the early LEDs were not good at growing coral...anybody use white/blue .25 watt panels anymore? Either the Olds brothers or Henry Ford (I forget) once said that their cars will never go a mile a minute... and they were right.. those early cars would never go a mile a minute but that doesn't make them wrong because stuff evolved. Let's don't twist the narrative using current examples with decade-plus old commentary and opinions. I had a friend spend $2k on a 48" LED that would "last her forever" and most of us told her to wait and she still likes to make fun of us that we were wrong about LEDs even thought hat fixture caught fire after a year and was a waste of money. Intelligent folks don't confuse these two things.
Don't assume that what you see online is a fair cross section of what is in the hobby. I go into about 40 houses a week and see a fair amount of reef tanks (more freshwater, though oscar tanks ALONE outnumber the reefs) and the vast majority are lit by older stuff (lots of CFs and NO tubes) and stuff that you get at the fish section at Wal Mart (if yours still has fish) or at the PetCo/PetSmart. In the last two years and probably 75 reef style tanks, one person has DIY LEDs and one more with some Black Boxes and a few with the PetCo LED strips and the rest are all stuff that has been running for at least 5 years - I imagine that all of the bulbs are quite old as well.
PLEASE EVERYBODY KEEP IN MIND THAT SPECIALTY LIGHTING IS ALWAYS EXEMPT FROM GOVT REGULATIONS.
To be fair, most of the early LEDs were not good at growing coral...anybody use white/blue .25 watt panels anymore? Either the Olds brothers or Henry Ford (I forget) once said that their cars will never go a mile a minute... and they were right.. those early cars would never go a mile a minute but that doesn't make them wrong because stuff evolved. Let's don't twist the narrative using current examples with decade-plus old commentary and opinions. I had a friend spend $2k on a 48" LED that would "last her forever" and most of us told her to wait and she still likes to make fun of us that we were wrong about LEDs even thought hat fixture caught fire after a year and was a waste of money. Intelligent folks don't confuse these two things.
Don't assume that what you see online is a fair cross section of what is in the hobby. I go into about 40 houses a week and see a fair amount of reef tanks (more freshwater, though oscar tanks ALONE outnumber the reefs) and the vast majority are lit by older stuff (lots of CFs and NO tubes) and stuff that you get at the fish section at Wal Mart (if yours still has fish) or at the PetCo/PetSmart. In the last two years and probably 75 reef style tanks, one person has DIY LEDs and one more with some Black Boxes and a few with the PetCo LED strips and the rest are all stuff that has been running for at least 5 years - I imagine that all of the bulbs are quite old as well.
kaceyo
Active Member
My first tank, back in the early 90's, had five 48" 40W fluorescents, consisting of what we called 50/50 bulbs and Philips Actinic 03. I ended up with a 180g tank which had a single 400 W metal halide over the "live rock and coral" end of the tank, and two 60" HO actinics, similar to T-5's in output, but larger diameter. Julian Sprung upset many reefers when he flip-floped on the fluorescent vs halide controversy and decided that halides actually were not harmful, and maybe even beneficial to our corals after all.
I didn't get into the T5's until recently with my Aquatic Life Hybrid fixture. I think people will continue to use halides and T5's as long as they are available.
I didn't get into the T5's until recently with my Aquatic Life Hybrid fixture. I think people will continue to use halides and T5's as long as they are available.
stephj03
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This really is a question about whether or not large residential acropora tanks are going in or out of style.
If +150g acropora rigs are trending, so will T5 and as a byproduct MH.
Right now, I would need to budget $7-9k to grow acropora anywhere in my 300g.
Bc of this, I fit into the small slice of the hobby where MH is growing.
If +150g acropora rigs are trending, so will T5 and as a byproduct MH.
Right now, I would need to budget $7-9k to grow acropora anywhere in my 300g.
Bc of this, I fit into the small slice of the hobby where MH is growing.
I will stick with MH as long as I can still get lamps, right now I have 7 reef tanks set up, 2 are MH and is MH/LED, 2 are total LED, and 1 still has a Compact Fluorescent lamp that is pushing 7 years old, in addition I have 2 frag flats that are currently lit by LED, I will be swapping out at least one of the LEDs for a MH system as soon as I find the time. Overall I still prefer LED by a large margin, it does things that I just cannot do with LED for a reasonable price. In every case I prefer my MH tanks over my tanks lit by other methods.
To light my 480g SPS tank I currently use 4 400mh, 2 160wt VHO and have 1 Reefbrite XHO waiting for the other one to be sent back to me after having it arrive not working. The only reason I bought the Reefbrite is the VHOs are getting extremely difficult to get, and while the one is nice having a 50% failure rate from day one doesn't leave me hopeful.
My 1100g reef runs 6 400 wt fixtures, after doing the math I figure I would need 16 Radions and at their price I can buy MH lamps until I am dead, oh wait I actually recycle my lamps off my 480g SPS system onto this system for a second year of life as it is a softy/LPS system with easier SPS thrown in, so once again LEDs can't even remotely compete. Total cost to upgrade would be somewhere around $13,000, So far I have right around $500 into the lights for this system, electricity would be a wash since right now I don't have to run heaters on the system, the MH provides 100% of the heating I need and the water volume is large enough it carries through the night.
On my 135g I have 3 AI Sols, they are on their last legs and have all had numerous components replaced, I have a pile in the basement of approx. 6 other Sols that are dead in some way and I have been scavenging parts from. So lifespan for these is about 8 years, I will need to replace within the next year. They have don't all right over the years but never been impressed.
I have a 28g nano running the PC lamp it came with, I bought it used and have had it for 7 years, still grows coral, maybe I should change that lamp though. Not my favorite by a longshot. I have another 28 Biocube with LEDs, never have got great growth on it. Finally I have a 10g biocube I modified to use an AI Prime, once again not impressed.
I have a 350g lagoon tank with a MH on one side to grow seagrass and an LED on the other. Not much to comment on that one. Also have a 90g tank with blackboxes, when I don't have coral eating fish in it they do well enough.
Finally I have 2 frag flats, the smaller one is lit by a Radion G2 that was upgraded with G3 pro pucks, this fixture is also on it's last leg, it just doesn't grow the coral as well as it used to. I have owned it for 6 years and bought it used. Based on what I spent on the fixture and its impending doom it would have been cheaper to have used the 250wt MH I had used on it before and will be switching back to in the near future. My lamps are $50 each replaced yearly so over 6 years I would have spent $300ish, I spent $400 on the Radion, once again heating is an issue for this system, it is plumbed into the 480g tank and I run heaters most the time. My final frag tank has 2 black box LEDs, it is for growing out the cheapy corals, does ok I guess but nothing to be impressed by for sure.
Now for a little info about me, I have been in the hobby since 1992 and have ran just about every lighting type that has come out over the years, in addition I am charge of the lighting for the state owned buildings in Colorado, I have mostly switched to LEDs in these buildings, it does what needs to be done and we have to change less lamps, given the thousands of lamps on our properties the savings are pretty large as well for electricity though in general we had no need to run 400 watt metal halides before we did have some and switched them over to post top LED lamps. In general I would say the average lifespan of an LED lamp is about 5 years before they burn out (probably drivers not the LEDs themselves), our main savings are in decreased wattage going from 32 wt T8 tubes to 12 wt Led lamps, even for the average homeowner this will make nearly no difference. We did a lot better switching out old incandescent lamps, probably once of the biggest savings was in labor for changing lamps going from about once every 2 years to about once every 5.
To light my 480g SPS tank I currently use 4 400mh, 2 160wt VHO and have 1 Reefbrite XHO waiting for the other one to be sent back to me after having it arrive not working. The only reason I bought the Reefbrite is the VHOs are getting extremely difficult to get, and while the one is nice having a 50% failure rate from day one doesn't leave me hopeful.
My 1100g reef runs 6 400 wt fixtures, after doing the math I figure I would need 16 Radions and at their price I can buy MH lamps until I am dead, oh wait I actually recycle my lamps off my 480g SPS system onto this system for a second year of life as it is a softy/LPS system with easier SPS thrown in, so once again LEDs can't even remotely compete. Total cost to upgrade would be somewhere around $13,000, So far I have right around $500 into the lights for this system, electricity would be a wash since right now I don't have to run heaters on the system, the MH provides 100% of the heating I need and the water volume is large enough it carries through the night.
On my 135g I have 3 AI Sols, they are on their last legs and have all had numerous components replaced, I have a pile in the basement of approx. 6 other Sols that are dead in some way and I have been scavenging parts from. So lifespan for these is about 8 years, I will need to replace within the next year. They have don't all right over the years but never been impressed.
I have a 28g nano running the PC lamp it came with, I bought it used and have had it for 7 years, still grows coral, maybe I should change that lamp though. Not my favorite by a longshot. I have another 28 Biocube with LEDs, never have got great growth on it. Finally I have a 10g biocube I modified to use an AI Prime, once again not impressed.
I have a 350g lagoon tank with a MH on one side to grow seagrass and an LED on the other. Not much to comment on that one. Also have a 90g tank with blackboxes, when I don't have coral eating fish in it they do well enough.
Finally I have 2 frag flats, the smaller one is lit by a Radion G2 that was upgraded with G3 pro pucks, this fixture is also on it's last leg, it just doesn't grow the coral as well as it used to. I have owned it for 6 years and bought it used. Based on what I spent on the fixture and its impending doom it would have been cheaper to have used the 250wt MH I had used on it before and will be switching back to in the near future. My lamps are $50 each replaced yearly so over 6 years I would have spent $300ish, I spent $400 on the Radion, once again heating is an issue for this system, it is plumbed into the 480g tank and I run heaters most the time. My final frag tank has 2 black box LEDs, it is for growing out the cheapy corals, does ok I guess but nothing to be impressed by for sure.
Now for a little info about me, I have been in the hobby since 1992 and have ran just about every lighting type that has come out over the years, in addition I am charge of the lighting for the state owned buildings in Colorado, I have mostly switched to LEDs in these buildings, it does what needs to be done and we have to change less lamps, given the thousands of lamps on our properties the savings are pretty large as well for electricity though in general we had no need to run 400 watt metal halides before we did have some and switched them over to post top LED lamps. In general I would say the average lifespan of an LED lamp is about 5 years before they burn out (probably drivers not the LEDs themselves), our main savings are in decreased wattage going from 32 wt T8 tubes to 12 wt Led lamps, even for the average homeowner this will make nearly no difference. We did a lot better switching out old incandescent lamps, probably once of the biggest savings was in labor for changing lamps going from about once every 2 years to about once every 5.
1. Have you ever used Metal Halide and T5 Lighting on a reef tank?
Old School from T8 to halides several runs at Halides to T5 to LED
2. Do you currently have a tank running MH or T5 lights?
No would never go back LED all the way forever. I did all the MH T5 stuff and like that, something the size of an A4 sheet of paper that weighs about the same as a bag of sugar will do the job. I love the control aspects. I also love not having to buy new tubes every 6-9 months and Lamps every year. I also love the lighting rig is no longer some hotchpotch or reflectors or lumps of metal hanging from wires or chains that have to have a hoist to move it to work on the tank.
Some corals might thrive and T5 some may do better under MH some will adapt better under LED.
I just do not get the nostalgia trip for real old cranky gear, done that got the T shirt and the Divorce LOL.
3. Do you remember the discussion about LED and about how there wasn't proof that they would work?
Oh yes that seems pretty funny now
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Old School from T8 to halides several runs at Halides to T5 to LED
2. Do you currently have a tank running MH or T5 lights?
No would never go back LED all the way forever. I did all the MH T5 stuff and like that, something the size of an A4 sheet of paper that weighs about the same as a bag of sugar will do the job. I love the control aspects. I also love not having to buy new tubes every 6-9 months and Lamps every year. I also love the lighting rig is no longer some hotchpotch or reflectors or lumps of metal hanging from wires or chains that have to have a hoist to move it to work on the tank.
Some corals might thrive and T5 some may do better under MH some will adapt better under LED.
I just do not get the nostalgia trip for real old cranky gear, done that got the T shirt and the Divorce LOL.
3. Do you remember the discussion about LED and about how there wasn't proof that they would work?
Oh yes that seems pretty funny now
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Oswald
New Member
I've used bot MH and T5's. I stopped using MH because of the expense to run and keep cool. Then it was just the look. I preferred being able to customize the hood for T5's. Now I'm running a hybrid set up. T5's paired up with AI's, so far so good.
I still remember buying cheap LEDs that didn't perform well. IMO the only thing keeping LEDs away from the clear front runner is cost. Ask this question again when you can pick up a top of line, full 125 tank setup for under 500 bucks
I still remember buying cheap LEDs that didn't perform well. IMO the only thing keeping LEDs away from the clear front runner is cost. Ask this question again when you can pick up a top of line, full 125 tank setup for under 500 bucks
littlebigreef
Valuable Member
I've used pretty much everything, halides, T5's led's and even -gasp- power compacts.
T5's are enjoying a resurgence, their effectiveness when paired with Led's has no equal. I know a few sps guys that are still hanging on to their Halides but for practical applications and the 'ordinary' hobbyist halides are largely unnecessary.
Power compacts were crap, are crap, and will always be crap lol.
T5's are enjoying a resurgence, their effectiveness when paired with Led's has no equal. I know a few sps guys that are still hanging on to their Halides but for practical applications and the 'ordinary' hobbyist halides are largely unnecessary.
Power compacts were crap, are crap, and will always be crap lol.
stephj03
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I was actual surprised to see how much MH is still used amongst some of the elite acropora vendors on tanks they are growing colonies in.
It would appear that the reef raft model is still quite popular amongst them to me:
Grow under MH
Color up under LED to sell.
IMO the aquatic life hybrid units are hobbyists attempt to reconcile their lack of ability to grow/color Acros like a lot of the big name places.
It would appear that the reef raft model is still quite popular amongst them to me:
Grow under MH
Color up under LED to sell.
IMO the aquatic life hybrid units are hobbyists attempt to reconcile their lack of ability to grow/color Acros like a lot of the big name places.
shwareefer
Valuable Member
1. Have you ever used Metal Halide and T5 Lighting on a reef tank?
Yes. My most successful tank was a 90 gallon mixed reef with 2 40W actinics and 2 175w 5000K halides. I ran it for 10 years until I moved and sold it packed with coral. Go figure.
2. Do you currently have a tank running MH or T5 lights?
I'm currently settting up a frag tank to split up overgrown coral from my display. The lighting will be T5. Seems like a no brainer for frag tanks.
3. Do you remember the discussion about LED and about how there wasn't proof that they would work?
Yep, it's still going on some places, lol.
Yes. My most successful tank was a 90 gallon mixed reef with 2 40W actinics and 2 175w 5000K halides. I ran it for 10 years until I moved and sold it packed with coral. Go figure.
2. Do you currently have a tank running MH or T5 lights?
I'm currently settting up a frag tank to split up overgrown coral from my display. The lighting will be T5. Seems like a no brainer for frag tanks.
3. Do you remember the discussion about LED and about how there wasn't proof that they would work?
Yep, it's still going on some places, lol.
McPuff
Valuable Member
Some people still use VHO even though they aren't (to my knowledge) manufactured anymore. I'm sure the same will be true of MH. T5 get a lot of love and I doubt they'll go anywhere until they are also no longer manufactured.
I have run them all: incandescent, fluorescent, PC fluorescent, several types of halides, t5, and many types of LED. I prefer LED because of the simplicity and controllability (ramping). And I like that they are easily customized with respect to spectrum. And and I like not having to change bulbs. That is just my preference.
I have run them all: incandescent, fluorescent, PC fluorescent, several types of halides, t5, and many types of LED. I prefer LED because of the simplicity and controllability (ramping). And I like that they are easily customized with respect to spectrum. And and I like not having to change bulbs. That is just my preference.
ReefRxSWFL
Active Member
A shift away from for sure. But as long as there are T5s, i wont go all LED. I have tanks with Kessil, AI, Maxsoect and Ecotech. Ive found over the last several years that you either need backup LED fixtures, or need T5 /LED setups so you have lights when your LEDs crap the bed. So as far as how long do the LED maintain their color?.... Doesnt matter, because the unit will crap the bed first. Kessils crap the bed soonist (Ive actually had T5 bulbs outlast Kessil 360s), and Kessil has the worst customer care. Ecotech/AI last longer, but you get world class support, and Maxspect...... meh......
So i guess All LED are ok if you can afford, or want to go through the BS of replacing them every 2 years, have at it Hoss. But if you cant grow coral, the Next Gen LED isn’t going to fix that.
So i guess All LED are ok if you can afford, or want to go through the BS of replacing them every 2 years, have at it Hoss. But if you cant grow coral, the Next Gen LED isn’t going to fix that.
volcano1
Community Member
1.yes
2.still running 4 400 watt se radium bulbs, in lumenarc large reflectors. Been running MH for nearly 20 years. My tank is 96” x 36” x 28”.
It would take a lot of led to fill up the space.
I like the look of the MH better as well.
3. I do remember the debate. I did see some people go back to t-5 or MH, after going to led.
I think your going to use similar wattage to cover your tank, no matter what form of lighting you are using. The MH generate more heat. Bad in summer , good in winter. At least in the Midwest.
I never had to run a chiller, just fan blowing between the lights and the water.
Yes for MH but I think that T5 will be still going for some more time.
I've never used MH myself but I've used T5s on my previous setup. I'm currently building a 120 gallons setup and I'm planning on using T5 and LED combination.
I remember when I was told by one of my friend about LEDs and honestly I was one of those that thought they wouldn't work.
I've never used MH myself but I've used T5s on my previous setup. I'm currently building a 120 gallons setup and I'm planning on using T5 and LED combination.
I remember when I was told by one of my friend about LEDs and honestly I was one of those that thought they wouldn't work.
Miller535
Valuable Member
I do not know about metal halides. I think they will eventually phase out. T5's at least according to BRS are already being banned in some countries in Europe for environmental reasons of making and disposing of the bulbs. Ryan also went on to claim that a vendor told him they think the rest of the EU wil follow. If that does happen it will likely eventually happen else where including the US. So T5's could be seeing their last years.
I think that a lot of this comes down to lack of knowledge or experience. For example, yes, URI/UVL still makes VHO bulbs. Yes, they still have use in some situation that makes them more effective and more efficient than LEDs or T5s - this is mostly in larger, retrofit situations. Also, even though I posted on this thread that US, EU and Asian bans on some types of lighting DO NOT include specialty lights - they never have - but people just either do not read or do not care and continue to post that MH or T5s are being banned like it applies to this hobby.
Miller535
Valuable Member
I only said what Ryan said on his BRS video. He claimed a vendor (in the bobby) told him that. If it's true or not, I do not know. If what Ryan said is true though, it makes sense. If a country bans the material that are in fluorescent tube lighting which includes T5 for environmental reasons, they are not going to make exceptions for specialties or hobbies. Again, if what he said is true. I have no idea if it is or isn't.
chaoticreefer
Active Member
Wasn't there an article like 6-12 months ago stating that Europe laws are forcing them out. Or am I thinking about MH? Either way it was one of them (MH or T5) were being forced to be phased out over there.
As for me, I have never used T5s only, but I have used both MH/VHO and LEDs. They both have pros and cons. LEDs pros are less heat and a lot less power usage. I live in inland Southern California (desert) where both of those are MAJOR issues. While I would never slam MH's qualities, but LEDs are catching up and fast where they once lacked compared to where MHs once had a foot hold. As for upgrading LEDs for every new generation that comes out. I still have my Radion G4s with no plans to upgrade.
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