These lights are done for good....or are they?

[Thaxxx]

I would really like to know how long leds last.
Seems everyone upgrades every couple years.
Are their any studys on leds that plot their output over several years over a reef tank in the real world?
Maybe I missed them.
Anyone have a link?
I really like the orpheks but the Radions on 14k setting look real close to my 14K MH.
Leds are cheaper if you buy cheap ones.
I ran black boxes and they work.
Top of the line leds are not cheap if you run a large tank.
My next upgrade will be 3x my current 120 and will be MH and high end leds, the best of both world, imo.

And this is exactly the arguments as far as cost to run MH.
Sure you don't have to upgrade your LED's, but you probably will.
That cost is never calculated in to the cost difference between LED and MH.
Plus your right about no one really knows how long they last or if they keep their same spectrum and PAR. Like everything else, if there is no money to be made in conducting these types of test, no one will do them. Not to mention the makers risks of revealing the "real long-term numbers" under aquarium conditions.
I would like to see a link too.....

 

[ca1ore]

1. Have you ever used Metal Halide and T5 Lighting on a reef tank?

T5 no, but I ran reef tanks with a combination of HQI and VHO for almost 20 years. When I started using MH back in 1987 (a DuplaSun fixture) there weren’t any reef specific bulbs. Used an Osram NDL as the best option.

2. Do you currently have a tank running MH or T5 lights?

Not anymore. I moved to 100% LED about 4-5 years ago primarily because I liked the added control .... and no more heat .... well, not as much.

3. Do you remember the discussion about LED and about how there wasn't proof that they would work?

Of course - such discussion dominated the dialog on RC. To be fair, the early blue/white generation of LED were absolute garbage and almost guaranteed to fail. Wasn’t until the advent of full spectrum that the worm began to turn. While I am sure there are folks that swear by MH and will ‘never’ switch, my own experience with LED is that they are fully capable of growing corals. It may even be that MH remains slightly superior, and I personally prefer the aesthetic, but I grew tired of dealing with all the heat.

As to the question of obsolescence, MH will disappear from the hobby eventually ..... it’s inevitable. Just glance at older magazines from the 1990s and there were dozens of companies making/selling MH. How many are there now? I’m sure there will be hobbyists that will continue to want to use MH, but will ballasts and bulbs continue to be available. Hoard them perhaps (I do this for vacuum tubes on my audio amplifier as they are getting harder to find). Cannot imagine there are many (any?) new hobbyists going MH. Of course, vinyl records are having their best year in 2020 since the advent of the CD, so who really knows.

BTW, the whole LED cost saving things has proven to be a massive red herring.

 

[Thaxxx]

The great thing about LEDs is the vast majority of reef fixtures use pretty standard LEDs from CREE or other major manufacturers - who produce copious amounts of documentation about their products. (as opposed to say MH, where you're using small run specialty bulbs that have basically no data)

Here's data on one specific CREE led line:

https://www.cree.com/led-components/media/documents/XLamp_lumen_maintenance.pdf

So unless these fixtures have completely inadequate cooling (looking at you cheaper black boxes) you run 10 hours a day, you're at 95% at 3 years. 85% at about 7-8 years.

Most of us are running significantly less than 100% - so losing a couple percent of output isn't a big deal.

I just read the LED data sheet you provided the link for.
Very impressive life in the Cred bulbs, but.....
Maybe I missed it. I didn't see where they mentioned the amount of on off cycles, and I must of also missed the Reef Aquarium conditions these test were conducted in.

 

[Bpb]

1. Have you ever used Metal Halide and T5 Lighting on a reef tank?

T5 no, but I ran reef tanks with a combination of HQI and VHO for almost 20 years. When I started using MH back in 1987 (a DuplaSun fixture) there weren’t any reef specific bulbs. Used an Osram NDL as the best option.

2. Do you currently have a tank running MH or T5 lights?

Not anymore. I moved to 100% LED about 4-5 years ago.

3. Do you remember the discussion about LED and about how there wasn't proof that they would work?

Of course - such discussion dominated the dialog on RC. To be fair, the early blue/white generation of LED were absolute garbage and almost guaranteed to fail. Wasn’t until the advent of full spectrum that the worm began to turn. While I am sure there are folks that swear by MH and will ‘never’ switch, my own experience with LED is that they are fully capable of growing corals. It may even be that MH remains slightly superior, and I personally prefer the aesthetic, but I grew tired of dealing with all the heat.

As to the question of obsolescence, MH will disappear from the hobby eventually ..... it’s inevitable. Just glance at older magazines from the 1990s and there were dozens of companies making/selling MH. How many are there now? I’m sure there will be hobbyists that will continue to want to use MH, but will ballasts and bulbs continue to be available. Hoard them perhaps (I do this for vacuum tubes on my audio amplifier as they are getting harder to find). Cannot imagine there are many (any?) new hobbyists going MH. Of course, vinyl records are having their best year in 2020 since the advent of the CD, so who really knows.

For me it wasn’t so much the heat as it was the humidity. I don’t mind bulb changes, or fixture aesthetics, and the heat was manageable. Problem is, I can’t run a chiller due to tank location. So I had to rely on evaporative cooling. The AC ran twice as long and evaporating 2-3 gallons of water a day in my 1500sqft house was beginning to cause horrible mold issues all over, rust forming on most the metal stuff inside the house, and humidity up in the 70%+ range all the time. I wasn’t about to go spend thousands on a big dehumidifier and/or chiller, attempt plumbing through walls, and spend 2-3x as much on electricity as I already was just to tackle the humidity issue and possibly enjoy the <10% or so growth boost from using MH over LED most people may enjoy (or may not even)

 

[92Miata]

I just read the LED data sheet you provided the link for.
Very impressive life in the Cred bulbs, but.....
Maybe I missed it. I didn't see where they mentioned the amount of on off cycles, and I must of also missed the Reef Aquarium conditions these test were conducted in.

On off cycles aren't really relevant in LEDs. They're not splattering liquids all over a glass tube at cooldown like Halides are, or rapidly heating a small piece of metal to four thousand degrees.

Can you post similar manufacturer data for MH or T5 bulbs where the testing was done exclusively in reef settings? I'm not sure why you think this is a restriction that should only be placed on LEDs?

I trust CREE, who produces billions of LEDs data way more than I trust any company in the aquarium industry - where everything thrives on anectdotes and nonsense.

 

[Lasse]

I didn't mean that the quality was in decline, but the usage was in decline. Ballasts and the bulbs are steadily becoming harder to source.
While it is true that lots of people have to have the latest and greatest, there is also always someone willing and able to buy the older versions. iPhone 8s are still for sale. I see a lot of G3 Radions for sale and they are not available for long.
Europe is trying to ban T5 bulbs, and the manufacturers are fighting it, I have worked in the tourist industry for a couple of decades. Travelers are demanding for hotels to go green. One of the quicker and cheaper ways of doing this is by replacing all fluorescent bulbs with LEDS. You can do this by changing the ballast or by purchasing the more expensive LED T5 bulb with the convertor built in. I did this last year in a hotel. We replaced 50 T5 lights. Our light bill was cut by 30% on the year. That makes LEDs much cheaper. Power only costs 9.3 cents a KwH for businesses here.

More than 10 years ago I did a large investigations of investment cost, electricity cost and service cost for changing a large science centers whole lighting system from halides, edison bulbs (now banned in EU) and T5/T8 bulbs. This shows up - that for a business - it should pay of in only 2 - 4 years already at that time. And the investments cost was horrible at that time - a 22 W spotlight was around $ 100 for a business. Here in Sweden thing grow slowly until IKEA present their new program around 5 - 6 years ago. They do not sell anything else than LED here in Sweden. In my household I have not have anything else than LED for many years ( except some old T8 in the kitchen and 3 pcs of T5 - 11 W) I haven´t change a bulb for at least 10 years, With the old Edison bulbs I had to change bulbs rather often especially when the big industries around close down for holidays. In Sweden - its tradition that from early december and to after christmas have a seven-armed candlestick in nearly every window. Traditionally they had 3 watts edison or halide bulbs . I did a calculation if every household and industry in Sweden should change to - at that time new and costly - 0.1 W LED bulbs could do to the energy consumption in a year. The result was that we could close down one of our nuclear plants in that case . Today - there is no new electrical candlesticks sold in Sweden that's not are LEDs. The things we have learned here is that it is not the legislation that change the use of light source (even if it can speed up the change) - it is the cost effectiveness that make the change in the long run.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Ippyroy]

More than 10 years ago I did a large investigations of investment cost, electricity cost and service cost for changing a large science centers whole lighting system from halides, edison bulbs (now banned in EU) and T5/T8 bulbs. This shows up - that for a business - it should pay of in only 2 - 4 years already at that time. And the investments cost was horrible at that time - a 22 W spotlight was around $ 100 for a business. Here in Sweden thing grow slowly until IKEA present their new program around 5 - 6 years ago. They do not sell anything else than LED here in Sweden. In my household I have not have anything else than LED for many years ( except some old T8 in the kitchen and 3 pcs of T5 - 11 W) I haven´t change a bulb for at least 10 years, With the old Edison bulbs I had to change bulbs rather often especially when the big industries around close down for holidays. In Sweden - its tradition that from early december and to after christmas have a seven-armed candlestick in nearly every window. Traditionally they had 3 watts edison or halide bulbs . I did a calculation if every household and industry in Sweden should change to - at that time new and costly - 0.1 W LED bulbs could do to the energy consumption in a year. The result was that we could close down one of our nuclear plants in that case . Today - there is no new electrical candlesticks sold in Sweden that's not are LEDs. The things we have learned here is that it is not the legislation that change the use of light source (even if it can speed up the change) - it is the cost effectiveness that make the change in the long run.

Sincerely Lasse

It was insane to see how much money was saved. The energy savings allowed us to change other things. Going Green does pay for itself. Electricity is very cheap here and it is a CoOp. I hope someone can make a T5 LED bulb work for reef tanks. I believe that might be the next step. A simple set it and forget method. I wonder if anyone has tested the PAR and spectrums of T5 bulbs with the built in LED ballasts?

 

[Lasse]

I use this

Mitras Lightbar 2

www.aquariumcomputer.com

No lins - even spread - 3 watts run low ( around 360 mA instead for 1050 mA - high efficiency/watt and long life span) IMO - the best of two worlds. I run around 1 watts/L as max (3 hours a day) and ramp up and down for 12 hours. It is doable with a computer but if you do not have a computer you can run them on/of in full wattage. You can see how it looks in my build thread - pictures and videos is not changed in temperatures. Would never ever chose another light and yes I was one of the hated writers on the large multi chip thread in another forum some years ago......

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Johniejumbo]

I love my metal halides. I use them now and don’t really plan to switch. I do have an led over my 20g tank that looks great though so if I had to switch I wouldn’t be bothered to much I guess.

 

[eric.tech]

The great thing about LEDs is the vast majority of reef fixtures use pretty standard LEDs from CREE or other major manufacturers - who produce copious amounts of documentation about their products. (as opposed to say MH, where you're using small run specialty bulbs that have basically no data)

Here's data on one specific CREE led line:

https://www.cree.com/led-components/media/documents/XLamp_lumen_maintenance.pdf

So unless these fixtures have completely inadequate cooling (looking at you cheaper black boxes) you run 10 hours a day, you're at 95% at 3 years. 85% at about 7-8 years.

Most of us are running significantly less than 100% - so losing a couple percent of output isn't a big deal.

I agree, Cree LED’s are a great product and there is a ton of documentation out there for them, just have to find out the model of the chip, XT-E, XP-G, etc.

I’ve used power compacts, halides on their own, halides with diy royal blue led supplements, and now radion G3’s with the blue led supplements. I can say they all grew corals. Power savings of LED’s? 300 watts is 300 watts regardless of if it’s LED, halide, or T5. Down in FL or other warm climates, heat output of the halides may be an issue if they’re in a small room where heat can build up or there is poor ventilation. up north it may be a blessing as your heater won’t have to work as hard.

i love the look of a 10k halide supplemented with some royal blue Cree LED’s, but I am enjoying my radions for their controllability, apps, and overall features. When I finally get to my 220g build, I’ll probably go with halides or a diy led fixture due to the sheer cost to cover 6’ worth of tank with radions lol.

 

[Thaxxx]

On off cycles aren't really relevant in LEDs. They're not splattering liquids all over a glass tube at cooldown like Halides are, or rapidly heating a small piece of metal to four thousand degrees.

Can you post similar manufacturer data for MH or T5 bulbs where the testing was done exclusively in reef settings? I'm not sure why you think this is a restriction that should only be placed on LEDs?

I trust CREE, who produces billions of LEDs data way more than I trust any company in the aquarium industry - where everything thrives on anectdotes and nonsense.

Well if you trust CREE, that should be good enough for all of us here.
It's not nessasarly the bulbs that may need replacing. We don't know yet know the real aquarium life of LED. And we probably never will. Because it seems very few keep them long enough to find out.
We already know the replacement costs of MH. Testing has been done for decades in aquarium conditions. Decades.
We also don't know when or if these companies well fix these lights at a reasonable price instead of giving us the same canned answer of, "we can give you a discount if you upgrade to the new model # UWILLBEUPGADINGAGAININ2022.
The thing is not very many people want to tell you about the failures of anything they've bought, and braged about. So unfortunately we'll never know the failure rate.
So it boils down to as always. What you like best.

 

[92Miata]

Well if you trust CREE, that should be good enough for all of us here.
It's not nessasarly the bulbs that may need replacing. We don't know yet know the real aquarium life of LED. And we probably never will. Because it seems very few keep them long enough to find out.
We already know the replacement costs of MH. Testing has been done for decades in aquarium conditions. Decades.
We also don't know when or if these companies well fix these lights at a reasonable price instead of giving us the same canned answer of, "we can give you a discount if you upgrade to the new model # UWILLBEUPGADINGAGAININ2022.
The thing is not very many people want to tell you about the failures of anything they've bought, and braged about. So unfortunately we'll never know the familiar rate.
So it boils down to as always. What you like best.

We're 20 years into LEDs as viable primary reef lights. Literally decades. There are literally thousands of people on this forum running previous-gen LEDs.

What, specifically, do you want for evidence?

 

[fish farmer]

1. Have you ever used Metal Halide and T5 Lighting on a reef tank?

My first tank was MH and PC combo....all DIY. I would have gone with a MH on my current tank which I set up 10 years ago, but didn't have the space above the tank and also concern for heat. I stuck several PC's over it.

2. Do you currently have a tank running MH or T5 lights?

I currently have a "Build My LED" 14,000 dimmable LED fixture over my 29 gallon and put additional T5's on either side of it for better coverage.

3. Do you remember the discussion about LED and about how there wasn't proof that they would work?


Yes, something about a low wattage LED over a dixie cup wouldn't grow SPS.....reefs.org or RC around 15 years ago?

 

[naterealbig]

(as opposed to say MH, where you're using small run specialty bulbs that have basically no data)

Maybe.... except for Kessil, XHO, ect....

Curious... have you looked for any data on MH Bulbs? Sanjay's lighting guide gives you info on spectrum, PAR, & PPFD on roughly 2,000 combinations of MH bulbs/ballasts.....

 

[Dolphins18]

T5's are stunning to the eye IMO, and Metal Halides can heat a whole house in the winter lol.

 

[Jax15]

I don't think T5s are going anywhere anytime soon. I run a T5/Kessil hybrid currently, it's a good setup. Halide, not as sure. Know there's still plenty people that love them.

 

[92Miata]

Maybe.... except for Kessil, XHO, ect....

Curious... have you looked for any data on MH Bulbs? Sanjay's lighting guide gives you info on spectrum, PAR, & PPFD on roughly 2,000 combinations of MH bulbs/ballasts.....

I'm not looking for general spectrum data.

I'm looking for the equivalent of what Thaxxx asked for for LEDS - long term MTBF and spectrum shift data for these specific bulbs - studied in reef conditions, with proper data logging, for thousands of samples of each bulb. Similar spectrum shift data over the lifetime of a MH ballast.

Aside from the "reef conditions" - this is something we have with LEDs - we have literally billions+ of hours of spectral and luminosity data because these specific emitters are being used in everything from household bulbs to flashlights to spotlights to car lights to street lights and everything in between. The amount of data we have on modern LEDS is absurd.

And because they're being used as base components - the data is basically directly transferable.

This is not something we have with MH - we largely only have snapshot data. Sanjay's work is great (and honestly,plenty) - but we have significantly more data for LEDs, and it doesn't seem to satisfy what Thaxxx seems to be asking for.

Which is why I asked what specifically he was asking for to prove to him that LED fixtures work, and don't have to be replaced all the time.

 

[glb]

I’ve used LED’s and T-5’s and currently have a T-5 fixture on my 40g. The T-5’s produce better results in my experience. I remember when LED’s came out and the naysayers who said they wouldn’t work. I’m sure others have success with them, but I’ll stick with my T-5’s.

 

[aalhait]

I have an old 150 Fish Only which is still running on 2x250W MH and 2 T5. I have an older AI setup that needs to go up there and replace it. The reef which was running the old AI setup is now on Radions. So I think once I replace the Old Aqua Controller Pro on the Fish Tank, I will go through an update process and replace the MH for good.

 

[tony'stank]

1982 - First reef tank Homemade metal halide (landscape lights) T5 ( fluorescent shop lights) combo fixture
1990s - Compact fluorescent plus homemade metal halide fixture
2000 - commercial metal halides made for reef tanks ( electric bill increase $50.00 per month
2012 - LEDs
LEDs ever since