Think I Was Wrong…It HAS TO Be Live Rock

[HudsonReefer2.0]

I’ve been under the impression since returning to the hobby that we’ve made strides in knowing how to successfully start a tank with dry rock and have it be just as solid as a live rock based tank with some extra leg work on the front end (i.e. tub cycling the rock to get it seeded, months long rock only in tank cycle before eventually turning the lights on, continuing to cycle before slowly adding coral and eventually fish to allow the dry rock to gain the amount of bacteria live rock would have).

After reading a bunch, it sounds like while it works for SOME people SOMETIMES, it’s not the preferred route. I keep hearing about how much longer the ugly stages are lasting, problems popping up non stop over the first 2-3+ years even with people who took the prudent approach with dry rock. And I’m not talking about problems that are just part of the hobby that the right stocking list and care will quickly get in check for good. I’m talking potentially chronic tank issues and just really slow progress…more headache than is necessary.

My thought process was if I take the safe patient approach with dry rock, I’ll never have the miserable aptasia my first tank had that my filefish couldn’t keep up with, or that bubble algae and Dinos, or the excessive amounts of bristle worms that just generally creep me out. Although, I also wouldn’t get all that cool random biodiversity and random hitchhikers like the sponges, star fish, green star polyp and anemone I was surprised by.

Now I’m becoming more and more convinced that the random unwelcome hitchhikers are much easier to deal with than a tank that never fully stabilizes before it comes down or you need to move. That the benefits of immense biodiversity of live rock from the ocean grossly outweighs any other considerations. After all, I’m always going to be risking hitchhikers with additions of new coral to my tank, new clean up crew, etc.

I think I’m now in the camp of real live rock from the ocean is the only way to go…

Just saw this. Amen. I am a firm believer and Practioner of live rock systems. It’s what’s powering the current set up. A few other fugazi live rock PCs were added at later stages as the tank matured. But they were left in the sump for some time. Also the addition of a diverse group of pods adds to diversity and May help to break down / shorten certain so called ugly stages.

 

[jda]

I cannot believe that people argue over one-time shipping cost, yet will buy all manner of bacteria, pods, etc. and ship those to have a subset of what comes on live rock. ...not to mention chemicals and media to combat hair algae and dinos, and shipping those too.

 

[moreef]

Forget live ocean rock I want PaulB rock

 

[Gundy]

I cannot believe that people argue over one-time shipping cost, yet will buy all manner of bacteria, pods, etc. and ship those to have a subset of what comes on live rock. ...not to mention chemicals and media to combat hair algae and dinos, and shipping those too.

I estimate the cost of purchasing live rock and shipping to be around 2500.00 for my 380 gallon. I am gladly willing pay this cost to get a lot of bacteria biodiversity added immediately-to establish and maintain tank stability. I refuse to go the dry rock route and constantly have to fight algae month after month for who knows when.

 

[JoJosReef]

I agree 100%. if one starts out a tank with quality live rock, how many months ahead are they compared to dry rock? Also, ( if tank is stocked really well with fish and some corals), how long would It take this live rock tank to be considered mature? All comments welcome.

If you go with ocean rock/sand shipped in water, I think you can go ahead and stock up within days. I put coral into my TBS rock/sand nano on day 1--I took care to keep the rocks wet throughout the aquascaping process, and there was almost no die-off that I could tell. Had I filled it full of coral/macro/nems/fish/inverts right away, it would have been "mature" on Day 2.

As far as cycle goes, yeah it's cycled. I noted zero ammonia throughout the process.

For my hybrid 1/3rd TBS rocks + 2/3rd dry old reef rocks, I added a supplement for the sand (Fiji Mud) and Fritz TurboStart to stay on the safe side and then waited a couple of weeks, just keeping the corals that came in with the TBS rock transfer and a few macro algaes added. I added some Dr. Tim's ammonia at varying doses given the transferred livestock, so hard to say when everything was truly cycled, but it all went very fast. Fish transferred after a couple weeks and could have gone sooner. After 4 months, I think the dry rocks are reaching maturity--they are purpling all over, but the system has supported 2 to 7 fish over these 4 months plus 50+ corals with no problems.

For me, the cost of live rock is worth having a rapidly mature tank. Parameters seem to be much more stable from the get-go, too. BTAs added to the tank within a month are doing great. In my dry rock tank, they sadly shriveled and died (variety of reasons, I'm sure, but stability was definitely one of them).

 

[JoJosReef]

I estimate the cost of purchasing live rock and shipping to be around 2500.00 for my 380 gallon. I am gladly willing pay this cost to get a lot of bacteria biodiversity added immediately-to establish and maintain tank stability. I refuse to go the dry rock route and constantly have to fight algae month after month for who knows when.

That's a pretty penny. But imagining grabbing handfuls of GHA out of a 380 just to get hit with dinos next makes me think it's a steal.

 

[HudsonReefer2.0]

Forget live ocean rock I want PaulB rock

rock so old u need the JWST to see it. Lol. Jkn @Paul B.

 

[LilElroyJetson]

better explanation:

bristle worm trap

hello community, Well, the title says it all. can anyone give me some advice on a bristle worm trap? found a few on amazon but not much. And recommend one? Thanks...

www.reef2reef.com

Thanks, JoJo! No bristleworm infestation at the moment given my tank’s still dry, but should I ever have one I know how to handle it.

 

[Hulkwithin]

I started with dry rock, it was cost friendly , did I have problems with algae and stuff … yeah but I think personally it made me better at maintaining my reef but that’s me persona

Look up Florida live rock. They ship it over night wrapped in wet newspaper. At least 90% of life makes the trip. It's not cheap but definitely live rock , to the point some people get fish in it.

Is this U.S Live Rock "site" you mentioned?

 

[Hulkwithin]

Is this your first dry rock tank? The reason I ask is because 7 months is still a young tank. Great to not be having major issues, but my hesitation is that some of those bad issues (not just ones you’ve mentioned) that usually correct for good using live rock, tend to reoccur or persist over time with dry rock due to the relatively low amount of biodiversity. Hard to say whether you’re home free so early, but fingers crossed.

So true I have 190 gallon tank which I started with all Marco dry rock added bio blocks and balls and I have had no pest or very little algae problems, even diatoms. Its been up and running for over a year until now I have a bad case of Dino's I have dosed all kinds of bacteria, Micro Bachter 7, Dr. Tims, copepods , Live phyto etc. on and on and on. I have have spent a small fortune. lol Anyways now I am looking to add some Live Rock either to my sump or display. I have plenty of room in both. Nothing like mother nature in the good or bad.

 

[PotatoPig]

That's a pretty penny. But imagining grabbing handfuls of GHA out of a 380 just to get hit with dinos next makes me think it's a steal.

From my viewpoint down at the lowly 75 gallon range, by the time someone is running a ~400 gallon tank they’ve probably thrown in the towel on budget control.

Like, light’s probably cost more than that, power heads are probably in a similar ballpark, all the gear in the sump probably costs about as much again, and the tank is gonna be steep to start. At this point the difference between live rock vs dry rock is probably (guesstimating) about 10% of the total tank budget max before you even add livestock.

 

[Wasabiroot]

I'm in the split camp - mostly dry rock with some live added to help seed. The cost of all live rock can be quite steep and I believe the dry rock vs live has some confirmation and recency bias problems - tons of people who start with dry rock that aren't posting about any problems and are just fine long term, and many people with live rock who run into a whole host of issues (now and in the past) that don't mention it or wear rose colored glasses. Not to mention we are taking an entire host of separate, possibly unrelated issues (phosphate leeching etc etc) and saying "dry rock" as a blanket reasoning for future issues without explaining it further. I love nature as much as the next person but dengue fever, skin cancer from the sun, and arsenic are also natural lol, so at a certain point it's hard because for me correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation. Like imagine if I get a breakout of some horrible thing - it seems specious to go "must have been my frugal decision two years ago to get dry rock and not any of the other actions I have taken in the time since"

Biodiversity is awesome but I also don't think the key to success is to buy 1200 dollars worth of ocean rock that costs 200 dollars to ship or wait 3 years for any success...and it bothers me that if that doesn't fit your budget or timeline or you have a problem with that you can be labeled spoiled and impatient. The hobby is allowed to change to be easier and cheaper. It feels gatekeepy to me. It's kinda like the metal halide vs led thing...live and let live, but one piece of equipment is just that, a piece of a larger puzzle.

The vast majority of problems tied to liverock, IMO, are more likely the result of mistakes, poor maintenance habits, or lack of quarantine protocol. I think it's more appropriate to say that starting with liverock makes the beginning much easier, but isn't a prerequisite for an amazing tank. There's tons on here that started with dry rock and look amazing. I started with all dry and had a bunch of issues, almost all of which could have been fixed by careful quarantine and better maintenance habits. It's just funny to me that people get so defensive of new hobbyists wanting to save money and wait less time.

The ocean is full of diversity; it's also full of unknown pathogens.

Thanks for coming to my Ted talk. Not trying to start something, just my 2c!

 

[JoJosReef]

Like imagine if I get a breakout of some horrible thing

I, too, blame this rash I have on the dry rock I bought in 2021. Bad decision!

Aside: haha, dengue came out of left field. Random thought or have you had dengue before?

 

[LilElroyJetson]

I'm in the split camp - mostly dry rock with some live added to help seed. The cost of all live rock can be quite steep and I believe the dry rock vs live has some confirmation and recency bias problems - tons of people who start with dry rock that aren't posting about any problems and are just fine long term, and many people with live rock who run into a whole host of issues (now and in the past) that don't mention it or wear rose colored glasses. Not to mention we are taking an entire host of separate, possibly unrelated issues (phosphate leeching etc etc) and saying "dry rock" as a blanket reasoning for future issues without explaining it further. I love nature as much as the next person but dengue fever, skin cancer from the sun, and arsenic are also natural lol, so at a certain point it's hard because for me correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation. Like imagine if I get a breakout of some horrible thing - it seems specious to go "must have been my frugal decision two years ago to get dry rock and not any of the other actions I have taken in the time since"

Biodiversity is awesome but I also don't think the key to success is to buy 1200 dollars worth of ocean rock that costs 200 dollars to ship or wait 3 years for any success...and it bothers me that if that doesn't fit your budget or timeline or you have a problem with that you can be labeled spoiled and impatient. The hobby is allowed to change to be easier and cheaper. It feels gatekeepy to me. It's kinda like the metal halide vs led thing...live and let live, but one piece of equipment is just that, a piece of a larger puzzle.

The vast majority of problems tied to liverock, IMO, are more likely the result of mistakes, poor maintenance habits, or lack of quarantine protocol. I think it's more appropriate to say that starting with liverock makes the beginning much easier, but isn't a prerequisite for an amazing tank. There's tons on here that started with dry rock and look amazing. I started with all dry and had a bunch of issues, almost all of which could have been fixed by careful quarantine and better maintenance habits. It's just funny to me that people get so defensive of new hobbyists wanting to save money and wait less time.

The ocean is full of diversity; it's also full of unknown pathogens.

Thanks for coming to my Ted talk. Not trying to start something, just my 2c!

Great post and agreed. I will just add though that that was kind of my point in stating that, cost element taken aside, in my opinion, live rock is the way to go…because the vast vast majority of people are NOT going to be great at maintaining their tanks with absolute consistency, and I think the biodiversity that live rock provides really helps mitigate some of the problems that are a result of bad tank husbandry that tend to get very bad at a much quicker rate all things equal with dry rock. The fact that it’s cost prohibitive to many is annoying and unfortunate, but I think where it’s practical for someone, they should prioritize live rock over some of the fancier bells and whistles gear-lovers tend to prioritize (myself included), and in the meantime we all look forward to the day someone on here finds a way to bring live rock to our living rooms in a sustainable and affordable way to increase accessibility to it and long term success in the hobby.

 

[jda]

I estimate the cost of purchasing live rock and shipping to be around 2500.00 for my 380 gallon. I am gladly willing pay this cost to get a lot of bacteria biodiversity added immediately-to establish and maintain tank stability. I refuse to go the dry rock route and constantly have to fight algae month after month for who knows when.

I would get cheaper or base rock for the bottom. Many places sell this for less than the premium rock. This can ship UPS or FedEx in newspaper. I would only buy the primo or deco stuff for the top. Perhaps you already calculated this.

You can look local for base rock. 3 full 44g brutes given away for free last week in Denver, so if you are close to a metro area, check it out - buy a rubbermade tub to keep the rock in the mean time.

 

[Wasabiroot]

Great post and agreed. I will just add though that that was kind of my point in stating that, cost element taken aside, in my opinion, live rock is the way to go…because the vast vast majority of people are NOT going to be great at maintaining their tanks with absolute consistency, and I think the biodiversity that live rock provides really helps mitigate some of the problems that are a result of bad tank husbandry that tend to get very bad at a much quicker rate all things equal with dry rock. The fact that it’s cost prohibitive to many is annoying and unfortunate, but I think where it’s practical for someone, they should prioritize live rock over some of the fancier bells and whistles gear-lovers tend to prioritize (myself included), and in the meantime we all look forward to the day someone on here finds a way to bring live rock to our living rooms in a sustainable and affordable way to increase accessibility to it and long term success in the hobby.

A fine point!

 

[Tamale]

I’ve done two tanks now with dry rock (landlocked). First one (20g) was just dry rock, live sand and bacteria. Had my share of algae/cyano issues but settled out after a year and now 2 years in that rock looks like live rock from the sea.

My new tank (64g) I went bare bottom from startex and added live biomedia from TSA to the sump just to see how that would go. Zero major algae issues beyond the standard film algae and a tiny bit of GHA that came on a frag and never took off. Nutrients have remained near zero despite heavy feedings/coral feeding. I partially attribute that to the mature media I added week 1. Almost 8 months in and it’s been a breeze compared to my first time.

I think if you are going dry rock spending the extra 50-60 bucks (or from a fellow reefer) for some media from an established system can give you a leg up without the nasty surprises that *can* be found on true live rock. The issue is we tell people rock, sand and bacteria is all you need. And it is, but with caveats imo.

At the end of the day a lot of these issues we blame on straight dry rock is really newbies not knowing what they are doing or having practical experience.

 

[Port City Reefer]

Just curious if one were to fill the display with dry rock but add a couple pieces of live rock to the sump, would that biodiversity spread to the dry rock eventually?

Hi seasoned reefers, being new to reefing I am interested in some opinions from those that have tried this combo?

 

[Tamale]

Hi seasoned reefers, being new to reefing I am interested in some opinions from those that have tried this combo?

That’s essentially what I did. I mention it in my post above yours if you want to look at it!

 

[MnFish1]

I’ve been under the impression since returning to the hobby that we’ve made strides in knowing how to successfully start a tank with dry rock and have it be just as solid as a live rock based tank with some extra leg work on the front end (i.e. tub cycling the rock to get it seeded, months long rock only in tank cycle before eventually turning the lights on, continuing to cycle before slowly adding coral and eventually fish to allow the dry rock to gain the amount of bacteria live rock would have).

After reading a bunch, it sounds like while it works for SOME people SOMETIMES, it’s not the preferred route. I keep hearing about how much longer the ugly stages are lasting, problems popping up non stop over the first 2-3+ years even with people who took the prudent approach with dry rock. And I’m not talking about problems that are just part of the hobby that the right stocking list and care will quickly get in check for good. I’m talking potentially chronic tank issues and just really slow progress…more headache than is necessary.

My thought process was if I take the safe patient approach with dry rock, I’ll never have the miserable aptasia my first tank had that my filefish couldn’t keep up with, or that bubble algae and Dinos, or the excessive amounts of bristle worms that just generally creep me out. Although, I also wouldn’t get all that cool random biodiversity and random hitchhikers like the sponges, star fish, green star polyp and anemone I was surprised by.

Now I’m becoming more and more convinced that the random unwelcome hitchhikers are much easier to deal with than a tank that never fully stabilizes before it comes down or you need to move. That the benefits of immense biodiversity of live rock from the ocean grossly outweighs any other considerations. After all, I’m always going to be risking hitchhikers with additions of new coral to my tank, new clean up crew, etc.

I think I’m now in the camp of real live rock from the ocean is the only way to go…

I disagree. There is no evidence for much of what you're saying about biodiversity etc. Many people start tanks with dry rock and are successful - many people start tanks with live rock from the ocean and end up with parasites/hitchhikers, etc.