Think I Was Wrong…It HAS TO Be Live Rock

[Eric Cohen]

I’ve been under the impression since returning to the hobby that we’ve made strides in knowing how to successfully start a tank with dry rock and have it be just as solid as a live rock based tank with some extra leg work on the front end (i.e. tub cycling the rock to get it seeded, months long rock only in tank cycle before eventually turning the lights on, continuing to cycle before slowly adding coral and eventually fish to allow the dry rock to gain the amount of bacteria live rock would have).

After reading a bunch, it sounds like while it works for SOME people SOMETIMES, it’s not the preferred route. I keep hearing about how much longer the ugly stages are lasting, problems popping up non stop over the first 2-3+ years even with people who took the prudent approach with dry rock. And I’m not talking about problems that are just part of the hobby that the right stocking list and care will quickly get in check for good. I’m talking potentially chronic tank issues and just really slow progress…more headache than is necessary.

My thought process was if I take the safe patient approach with dry rock, I’ll never have the miserable aptasia my first tank had that my filefish couldn’t keep up with, or that bubble algae and Dinos, or the excessive amounts of bristle worms that just generally creep me out. Although, I also wouldn’t get all that cool random biodiversity and random hitchhikers like the sponges, star fish, green star polyp and anemone I was surprised by.

Now I’m becoming more and more convinced that the random unwelcome hitchhikers are much easier to deal with than a tank that never fully stabilizes before it comes down or you need to move. That the benefits of immense biodiversity of live rock from the ocean grossly outweighs any other considerations. After all, I’m always going to be risking hitchhikers with additions of new coral to my tank, new clean up crew, etc.

I think I’m now in the camp of real live rock from the ocean is the only way to go…

Live rock has so many benefits which is why I started importing live rock again and offering "CURED" Rock to the hobby. Because it's so darn expensive, I only import very light weight rock which lowers the cost by like 3 times what older Fiji Style rock used to be like. You can seed a new tank with real live rock and lower your overall cost using dry rock. Some people who can afford it, just do all live rock from me. Tankstop.com and search for Decorative Live Rock from Australia.

 

[CoastalTownLayabout]

Yep, if you decide to use live rock best to go all in and get the best you can source.

 

[LilElroyJetson]

Yep, if you decide to use live rock best to go all in and get the best you can source.

Agreed. With that being said, do we have any consensus on what the majority generally believe to be the best source? I’ve even heard criticisms of what hitchhikers are more common from one reason vs another. But in terms of quality, who are the best sources?

 

[WillpoleReefers]

Ridiculous what things have become isn’t it?

I wonder if this one will go full circle,

Steve

 

[JoJosReef]

Live rock camp here. However...

I would like to throw out that not all dry rock is created equal, or at least I think.

TL;DR: real reef rocks that have been dried and reused are AWESOME

My case: 2 nanos, one with Caribsea LifeRock, one with TBS ocean rock. Former had horrible problems with uglies, latter had none except eventual introduction of bubble algae that was a nuisance but not dominating.

Fast forward: nano tank merger to 40gal. Caribsea LifeRock donated. TBS rock transferred. Dry rock covering the remaining 2/3rd of the tank. BUT!! Dry rock was not Marco or Caribsea or any other piece of cement, but instead 5 years dried previously live Fiji and Marshall islands reef rocks from decades ago sitting in someone's garage. Found it on a local listing. Picked up about 40lb for $70 and got a bag full of torches to boot after some fun conversation (that I split up and kept a head and donated the rest locally).

The Fiji/Marshall islands dry rocks are TOTALLY coral skeleton, super porous, beautiful, AND they grow coraline algae on them faster than any other rock I've seen, including other sources of "live rock" and including TBS rocks (which grow coraline fine, but this is crazy). I'll get pictures together of what 3 months of these Fiji/Marshall Islands rocks have done. Screw it, I'm wasting some time right now. Behold!

(space for TBS rock on the right hand side)

April 3rd:

April 14th, TBS rock added:

Aug 11th:
Disclaimer: I did preventative treatment with Flux Rx for 6-8 weeks for bubble algae I knew I was carrying over from my TBS rocks in the 10g nano, so rocks might looking cleaner than they normally would. @Eric Cohen take a look at how she did!

Totally purpling over every surface (Flux Rx seems to not affect coraline algae):

I don't know what it is about these rocks. They aren't impervious to Valonia or ulva (bye bye! Thanks Flux Rx!). But perhaps something about their surface structure is more suitable for coraline algae encrusting. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Is Fiji/Marshall island rocks easily available to everyone? Of course not. But maybe keep a keen eye out if you are planning an upgrade in the future and nab a good deal on these types of rocks as soon as you see them! 1000% worth it!

 

[JoJosReef]

I'm in the 50/50 camp.
I've gotten a few pieces of live from a few local club members.
Anything I get dry always gets an acid bath. Since starting that routine I haven't gotten any serious algae (maiden hair, bryopsis)

Diatom blooms seem like a hard one to avoid. My anecdotal experience has been limiting water changes in the first few months before moving on to small weekly changes. My belief is certain trace elements that deplete quickly help feed these blooms. Limiting water changes at the onset keeps diatom blooms smaller. I suppose this is a debate for a different thread.

Put in some conches! They LOVE diatoms! When I have a bloom, I just move the two conches around. One corner all brown before I leave work, put down the conch, next morning clean white sand! And my conches love me.

 

[Alexraptor]

Firmly in camp live rock. After nearly two decades in the hobby I couldn't imagine starting a tank with anything else, the biodiversity to be had is second to none.

And honestly, if i had gone dry rock, i would havem issed out on all the fun hitchhikers over the years. Limpets, brittlestars, starfish, mantis shrimp, chiton, stomatella, collonistas, etc etc.

 

[UtahReefer]

Unfortunately it has become ridiculous. I don't think there need to be a huge debate over the live / dry scenario. No doubt quality live is a great way to start a system and will achieve stability sooner. However, I think part of the problem with dry is a problem in the hobby... lack of patience. I've had many systems over the years started both ways. IMO the key to success with dry is to start to cultivate the biome in the rock long before you start the tank. Recently went through this with a new system that was a transfer. I used all new AF rock for the aquascape. I built it then soaked and cured it for several months. Added a food source then daily dosed AF BioS. I weekly dosed MB7, MB CLEAN, AF Pro BioS, and AF Life Source (mud from Fiji). Every two weeks I did a 5 gallon WC from the removed WC water in the 45g cube I was going to transfer from. On day 5 of the new system I had a reddish/brown algae outbreak all over the sand and rock. Day three of the outbreak it began to recede, and by the 5th day it was completely gone. Have had no issues since. I have none of the common dry rock issues that people have. I think a good basis for a biome start is exactly that... a good foundation. I believe you can do it with either method.

 

[Paul B]

Just curious if one were to fill the display with dry rock but add a couple pieces of live rock to the sump, would that biodiversity spread to the dry rock eventually?

Yes, but the more life from the sea, the better.
I didn't start multiple new tanks, Didn't have to. I started one in 1971 and it's still running today. I didn't have live rock as that came out decades later and there was no live rock or coral sold anywhere. I collected all my rock in the tropics but I had to bleach it before I carried it home on the plane. Some on me and to my wife's horrors, some on her lap.

I do however live on Long Island New York so I would go to the shore and collect some rocks to put in the tank. (I also collected barnacles, anemones, fish, crabs etc.)

I realize only people near the sea can do that but if I lived in Colorado, Utah or Tunisia, I would drive to a coast, any coast and fill my car with rock. It is only illegal in the tropics and here in New York they would just look at you funny.

This beach is behind my house and I collect amphipods a few times a year. I also get my water from here but If I lived 1,000 miles away, I would take a road trip.



Yes there is algae, crabs, anemones and everything else in NSW but thats life. I mean free livestock.
In the 52 years my reef has been running I never found a "pest" I didn't like....
Except maybe this guy.

 

[PotatoPig]

Just got back from a local LFS...rows and rows of tanks full of local live rock at about 35 cents a piece... they use it for the filtering of their systems and you can buy it from them

My LFS has something similar - a giant tank ~400 gallons ish filled to the brim with rock from tank breakdowns over the years that they sell from fairly economically- especially smaller pieces. It’s not straight from the ocean but does come with random feather dusters, worms, sponges, amphipods, copepods, etc. So definitely much more “live” than “dead”, and I can get it from the tank in the store to the tank at home in 15 mins flat.

 

[LilElroyJetson]

Live rock camp here. However...

I would like to throw out that not all dry rock is created equal, or at least I think.

TL;DR: real reef rocks that have been dried and reused are AWESOME

My case: 2 nanos, one with Caribsea LifeRock, one with TBS ocean rock. Former had horrible problems with uglies, latter had none except eventual introduction of bubble algae that was a nuisance but not dominating.

Fast forward: nano tank merger to 40gal. Caribsea LifeRock donated. TBS rock transferred. Dry rock covering the remaining 2/3rd of the tank. BUT!! Dry rock was not Marco or Caribsea or any other piece of cement, but instead 5 years dried previously live Fiji and Marshall islands reef rocks from decades ago sitting in someone's garage. Found it on a local listing. Picked up about 40lb for $70 and got a bag full of torches to boot after some fun conversation (that I split up and kept a head and donated the rest locally).

The Fiji/Marshall islands dry rocks are TOTALLY coral skeleton, super porous, beautiful, AND they grow coraline algae on them faster than any other rock I've seen, including other sources of "live rock" and including TBS rocks (which grow coraline fine, but this is crazy). I'll get pictures together of what 3 months of these Fiji/Marshall Islands rocks have done. Screw it, I'm wasting some time right now. Behold!

(space for TBS rock on the right hand side)

April 3rd:

April 14th, TBS rock added:

Aug 11th:
Disclaimer: I did preventative treatment with Flux Rx for 6-8 weeks for bubble algae I knew I was carrying over from my TBS rocks in the 10g nano, so rocks might looking cleaner than they normally would. @Eric Cohen take a look at how she did!

Totally purpling over every surface (Flux Rx seems to not affect coraline algae):

I don't know what it is about these rocks. They aren't impervious to Valonia or ulva (bye bye! Thanks Flux Rx!). But perhaps something about their surface structure is more suitable for coraline algae encrusting. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Is Fiji/Marshall island rocks easily available to everyone? Of course not. But maybe keep a keen eye out if you are planning an upgrade in the future and nab a good deal on these types of rocks as soon as you see them! 1000% worth it!

Great looking tank!

 

[LilElroyJetson]

Yes, but the more life from the sea, the better.
I didn't start multiple new tanks, Didn't have to. I started one in 1971 and it's still running today. I didn't have live rock as that came out decades later and there was no live rock or coral sold anywhere. I collected all my rock in the tropics but I had to bleach it before I carried it home on the plane. Some on me and to my wife's horrors, some on her lap.

I do however live on Long Island New York so I would go to the shore and collect some rocks to put in the tank. (I also collected barnacles, anemones, fish, crabs etc.)

I realize only people near the sea can do that but if I lived in Colorado, Utah or Tunisia, I would drive to a coast, any coast and fill my car with rock. It is only illegal in the tropics and here in New York they would just look at you funny.

This beach is behind my house and I collect amphipods a few times a year. I also get my water from here but If I lived 1,000 miles away, I would take a road trip.



Yes there is algae, crabs, anemones and everything else in NSW but thats life. I mean free livestock.
In the 52 years my reef has been running I never found a "pest" I didn't like....
Except maybe this guy.

Just absolutely unbelievable that you’ve had your tank up and running for so long. Do you know of anyone who has had a tank up longer? Anyone on here? (And incredible story by the way!)

 

[Paul B]

Do you know of anyone who has had a tank up longer? Anyone on here? (And incredible story by the way!)

No. The hobby started in the US in 1971 and thats when I started it.

 

[BubblesandSqueak]

next tank I'm going Fiji live rock if it's still available. Started my other one with carib life rock and it cycle just fine but the hitch hikers I had came from corals. aptasia, sponges, bubble etc...

 

[Shooter6]

I’ve been under the impression since returning to the hobby that we’ve made strides in knowing how to successfully start a tank with dry rock and have it be just as solid as a live rock based tank with some extra leg work on the front end (i.e. tub cycling the rock to get it seeded, months long rock only in tank cycle before eventually turning the lights on, continuing to cycle before slowly adding coral and eventually fish to allow the dry rock to gain the amount of bacteria live rock would have).

After reading a bunch, it sounds like while it works for SOME people SOMETIMES, it’s not the preferred route. I keep hearing about how much longer the ugly stages are lasting, problems popping up non stop over the first 2-3+ years even with people who took the prudent approach with dry rock. And I’m not talking about problems that are just part of the hobby that the right stocking list and care will quickly get in check for good. I’m talking potentially chronic tank issues and just really slow progress…more headache than is necessary.

My thought process was if I take the safe patient approach with dry rock, I’ll never have the miserable aptasia my first tank had that my filefish couldn’t keep up with, or that bubble algae and Dinos, or the excessive amounts of bristle worms that just generally creep me out. Although, I also wouldn’t get all that cool random biodiversity and random hitchhikers like the sponges, star fish, green star polyp and anemone I was surprised by.

Now I’m becoming more and more convinced that the random unwelcome hitchhikers are much easier to deal with than a tank that never fully stabilizes before it comes down or you need to move. That the benefits of immense biodiversity of live rock from the ocean grossly outweighs any other considerations. After all, I’m always going to be risking hitchhikers with additions of new coral to my tank, new clean up crew, etc.

I think I’m now in the camp of real live rock from the ocean is the only way to go…

Currently planning on ordering 25 or so pounds of live rock and putting it in 2 40 gal breeders and put some reef bars over it, to long term qt. After the winter putting it into 2 300g totes I have with about 2k lbs of dry rock I've been storing for a few years. Let it grow over the summer then offer it for sale.

 

[Derrick0580]

Yes, but the more life from the sea, the better.
I didn't start multiple new tanks, Didn't have to. I started one in 1971 and it's still running today. I didn't have live rock as that came out decades later and there was no live rock or coral sold anywhere. I collected all my rock in the tropics but I had to bleach it before I carried it home on the plane. Some on me and to my wife's horrors, some on her lap.

I do however live on Long Island New York so I would go to the shore and collect some rocks to put in the tank. (I also collected barnacles, anemones, fish, crabs etc.)

I realize only people near the sea can do that but if I lived in Colorado, Utah or Tunisia, I would drive to a coast, any coast and fill my car with rock. It is only illegal in the tropics and here in New York they would just look at you funny.

This beach is behind my house and I collect amphipods a few times a year. I also get my water from here but If I lived 1,000 miles away, I would take a road trip.



Yes there is algae, crabs, anemones and everything else in NSW but thats life. I mean free livestock.
In the 52 years my reef has been running I never found a "pest" I didn't like....
Except maybe this guy.

We live in Indiana, so being land locked with nsw collection not being an option. My lfs sells “live rock”, but it’s just the dry man made stuff they put into their large sumps and let colonize with whatever bacteria is in their systems. You don’t get the good/bad hitch hikers or macro algaes and such. No better than buying a box of dry rock and cycling it with dr. tims! The only real benefit to this is that they sell the stuff from their sump at the same price as the dry stuff.

 

[CoastalTownLayabout]

No. The hobby started in the US in 1971 and thats when I started it.

PaulB actually came in as a hitchhiker on the first piece of live rock ever used in the hobby.

 

[JoJosReef]

For landlocked reefers, if there are any local hobbyists nearby, you can try to pool together to purchase a shipment of wet rocks from TBS, thus splitting the cost of shipment. I do that with ReefCleaners orders to get shipping down to $7-10 per person. 2-3 buyers for rocks only gets you down to maybe $40-50 per person, but that's a lot more palatable than $120 or whatever current air freight rates are like.

 

[JoJosReef]

PaulB actually came in as a hitchhiker on the first piece of live rock ever used in the hobby.

How many times has he split, since?

 

[LiverockRocks]

Out of curiosity - how did the water/rock weight break down and was there a flat rate on top? Asking as their order system(just checked) doesn’t give you an option to check shipping costs until you buy. Which is frustrating, and something I’m wary of due to the steep shipping on their small packages.

Hiya @PotatoPig email us [email protected] for shipping quotes.