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It has been shown both scientifically and I think by aquabiomics - that diversity decreases as it gets older. Now - that depends on what you mean by biodiversity
Think I Was Wrong…It HAS TO Be Live Rock
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OP
OP
Of course, you’re welcome to disagree, I’m not stating anything matter of factly or claiming to be the authority on it. Just the direction my feelings towards the matter have shifted based upon all of the anecdotal experiences I’ve read about. Also, mentioned the caveats you touched on. Lots of nuance to it, as is clear in these ~8 pages of productive discussion thus far. To each their own, but live rock is my preferred route until there’s a really compelling reason not to go that route for my particular situation.
In the early days of the false-marketing for dry/dead rock, the sellers used to say that they were saving reefs from harvest. This appealed to some even if it was not correct. In fact, some of the dry rock that was sold was taken from reefs and dried out (what a shame) and there was already terrestrial rock put into the ocean for a few years that did not actually take from the reefs.
Most of the terrible things that caused real live rock to be banned in parts of the pacific had nothing to do with the hobby. In the Marshall Islands, reefs and rocks were being removed and crushed into road base. The ban on all harvest of ocean rock was a good thing even if the hobby only accounted for like 1/8 of a mile of the many hundreds of miles of rock that got collected, or something like that. In a few other countries, permits for rock were not renewed because politicians did not get paid enough.
Most of the terrible things that caused real live rock to be banned in parts of the pacific had nothing to do with the hobby. In the Marshall Islands, reefs and rocks were being removed and crushed into road base. The ban on all harvest of ocean rock was a good thing even if the hobby only accounted for like 1/8 of a mile of the many hundreds of miles of rock that got collected, or something like that. In a few other countries, permits for rock were not renewed because politicians did not get paid enough.
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Much of the live rock sold - is - live rock grown in the ocean (i.e. bare rock, placed in the ocean) - and grown. Then taken out and harvested.... I would appreciate anyone explaining - how this rock is different between 'dry' rock - in a tank - with a couple stones of live rock. In 3 months the 'dead rock' will be 'live rock'. There are multiple other examples. I know this is heresy to the people that believe in biodiversity - but again will point those people to the idea based on multiple studies that diversity decreases - not increases with time
It takes 2-3 years in the ocean to get out all of the terrestrial organics and phosphates clogging up all of the pores to support the most diverse life. It has had the work pre-done. If you had to make a bad parallel to tank raised rock, the minimum would be two or three years too.
Can we stop with one companies claim about diversity going this direction or that? ...the same company that sells tests and products?
Can we stop with one companies claim about diversity going this direction or that? ...the same company that sells tests and products?
Reefering1
Valuable Member
I agree with both of these statements.. my question is how much does the porosity, of real ocean rock, matter? I was told that my rock came from the ocean and was always kept wet. I believe it because of how many critters came out of them and ther odd shapes and holes in it. You could practically see the layers of coral skeletons giving it its shape. But how much does the porosity matter? Is there a man made substitute?
The more porous it is, the better that it is at denitrification. This is a good thing even if the current trend is to wrongly think of nitrate as food and want a super surplus of it.
Reefering1
Valuable Member
Makes sense. Feed well and keep residual levels low.. far as I know, real ocean rock is no longer harvested(?), so if I'm planning a upgrade and want real ocean rock, not ocean cured concrete, what is my next best option?
Limestone or aragonite from terrestrial sources placed in the ocean works out fine. Florida has this.
There is still some real live rock that is harvested. It can be expensive. There was just some Great Barrier Reef Australian stuff that could be had.
There is still some real live rock that is harvested. It can be expensive. There was just some Great Barrier Reef Australian stuff that could be had.
OP
OP
What are some of the sources for real ocean harvested live rock, do you know? Is KP Aquatics ocean harvested?
Yes. KP, Tampa Bay and there are others.
Edit: no, those are not harvested old rock and corals. They put in aragonite and then harvest the rock. You have not been able to get old coral skeleton rock from Florida for decades.
Edit: no, those are not harvested old rock and corals. They put in aragonite and then harvest the rock. You have not been able to get old coral skeleton rock from Florida for decades.
OP
OP
Any places you know of that sell/ship old coral skeleton?
Port City Reefer
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So Tampa bay live rock over this box bogus I’m looking at correct ? I’m in deeep about to set up this SAT?? Captain reefers let me hear you roar … which way??
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Just wanted to say that this has been a great discussion. I appreciate the perspective from the old timers as well. Always good to how things were for some perspective.
I would use tampa bay over that. That dry rock is not impossible, but I know what I am doing and I would put my success rate at 10x in both speed and ease with TB rock.
Shooter6
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There's them and 2 others in Florida that deal in reef rock. 1 in Tampa, the one you mentioned and another further north on the east coast.
So order smaller batches from each to increase biodiversity..
Shooter6
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In reef tanks due to the lack of input from the environment. That does not happen in the wild, and adding wild rock starts the system with a huge biodiversity. The biodiversity can be refreshed by adding small batches of new wild rock as well. Starting with dryrock and bottled bacteria, or livesand means your starting with a minimal biodiversity from the start, which will decrease in diversity too. Lastly biodiversity is not just bacteria. It the worms,shrimp,snails. The macro and micro algaes. Possibly fish as well as starfish. .
OP
OP
Likewise. A ton of great perspective and discussion here! I’m sure new reefers contemplating which direction to go who stumble upon this thread will find it helpful. The beauty of Reef2Reef!
Shooter6
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Here is a link to another thread and a video someone posted in it. This is Tampa Bay live rock.
Thread 'Tampa Bay Saltwater live rock' https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tampa-bay-saltwater-live-rock.507428/
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