This debate will last through eternity! But it's 2020 and have things changed?

[sp1187]

I'm going to go with "other".
they was a thing of the past. went 6 months without one.
having a few unexplained coral die offs. stuff dies off in the order it has been placed in the water box.
had an ICP test done. aluminum is high. known situation caused by marinepure blocks.
so removed the blocks and doing water changes until they go to zero. then it will be back to no water changes aside from the occasional sump vac.

side note.... aside from a monti or 2, I don't keep, nor do I have any intention of, SPS.

 

[ThRoewer]

Out on the reefs there are at least 2 large water changes per day. It's pretty much impossible to recreate that in a tank (unless you live on the coast and can pump the water straight from the ocean).
I do water changes primarily because I need water for larvae tanks, grow-out tanks, as well as quarantine and treatment tanks.
However, despite these frequent water changes my corals do rather poorly.
Small water changes do little to improve a tank's water quality if there are no other measures to export/consume nitrates and phosphates and replenish other consumed elements. I looked into the Triton method but it's not a cheap alternative to water changes either. And it's also not as easy as they claim.

I'd really would like to know how some manage to have flourishing corals and lots of well fed fish at the same time...
I'm good with fish, but struggle with corals.

 

[blasterman]

The thing is, feelings are not facts.

Then lets start with indisputable facts.

(1) Salt mixes do not contain any industry standard of trace elements.

(2 The reefing industry doesn't even agree on what a trace element is.

(3) One salt mix may consider potassium to be a trace element, then put 'contains trace elements' on the label. Reefers then assume it's uranium or unobtanium then start threads about how often they should do water changes because they contain trace elements.

(4) Replace the term 'Trace Elements' with 'Britney Spears' when you see somebody seriously talking about Trace Elements. It's fun, and often makes more sense,

(5) There are a lot of amazing SPS tanks posted on this very site where the owner does very infrequent or no water changes at all. Therefore you cannot logically conclude water changes are a requirement, or make up psuedo science that claims they are required.

Tanks with minimal or no water changes should be our goal, not putting your thumbs in your ears and go 'la la la I can't hear you' because of purchase justification.

 

[ThRoewer]

So all the vendors who grow and color up coral as fast as possible for a living all do weekly and regular water changes, are wrong? Nonsense

Unless you have a 4-5 year old tank, WC are essential for maximum coral health. The folks who say otherwise either have a tank of softies or are just lazy.

I also hate "if the corals looks good! bla blah." By the time your corals STOP looking ood the problem has been in the weeks, perhaps months in the making. Do *not* wait for your corals to look bad, it's likely too late.

That's precisely why I suck at corals.
Fish I can read and I know at a glance if something is off and needs correction.
But I suck at reading corals and by the time they show me something is off it's usually too late to prevent losses. And i simply don't have the time to do frequent tests - not that they would do me much good anyway - even with the standard parameters (NO3, PO4, Alk, Ca, Mg) within the right range my corals die...

As for stores, they do constant water changes just by selling corals and other livestock out of their systems. The water exports due to sold animals can easily be in the tens of gallons or more per day.

 

[Thaxxx]

Sounds about right LOL!

This hobby has historically suffocated under anecdotes and rules-of-thumb. Making forceful claims based on opinion is still just opinion. My approach to these things is that 'your' opinion doesn't matter and my opinion doesn't mater. They're either important or they're not. Since there is really no data one way or the other, I'll keep doing them just to be on the safe side. Imagine that's why places like WWC keep doing them.

That's the beauty of this hobby. There's no money to be made collecting data. So nobody really does it. Unless of course it's to boost some product that some company is selling.
Then of course "their data" will never be proven not to be true, because there's no money to be made doing it.

As to the original question.....
Depends on your system. Too many variables.

 

[SunnyX]

I am 100% for water changes. I have tried it all and my best results have always been obtained by keeping it simple when it comes to dosing and maintenance. I do conduct 20% water changes each week and drip Kalk daily. That's it, nothing else is dosed. My corals(SPS/LPS/ZOAS) grow exceptionally well and are vivid in coloration.

Keep it simple. No need to reinvent the wheel. Strong lighting, heavy flow, water changes and live rock. People fail in this hobby when they do more than is required and complicate things.

-Sonny

 

[terraincognita]

Unless you can afford full dosing of trace elements, primary elements, nitrate reactors, etc.,etc.. Then water changes will always be a key step to a healthy and stable reef.

What's more expensive?

Anyone done the math?

I chose other as well.

I'm currently doing water changes "when I feel like it" just because I can't write them off completely and forever.

Working out to maybe 1-2 a month of maybe 8-10 gallons in a 45 Most successful reef I've had yet.

 

[Mical]

Wow, lots of different experiences and theories and all have validation. Re: Poll - I voted OTHER.

I used to do water changes monthly and yes "to keep trace elements constant". Then I tried a version of the Triton Method - no socks, no water changes and dose Alk, Cal, Mag and trace elements (not Tritons) I've found dosing Alk, Cal daily, Mag every couple months and Red Sea trace every couple of months - I've seen more stability. I do also clean my skimmers weekly and both tanks run almost parallel. I said other because once a year I give both a 10 gal water change when I vac sumps.

#s[ATTACH type="full"]1816979[/ATTACH]

 

[SunnyX]

What's more expensive?

Anyone done the math?

I chose other as well.

I'm currently doing water changes "when I feel like it" just because I can't write them off completely and forever.

Working out to maybe 1-2 a month of maybe 8-10 gallons in a 45 Most successful reef I've had yet.

Perhaps the question should be what is the simplest method of achieving the best results. For me, dollar for dollar, water changes and KALK have always done the job and produced exception results. The more trace elements and other concoctions that you dose ends up costing you down the line. Whether it be expensive tests or time, there is a cost associated with each method.

Again, my preference, even if it costs slight more(It my case it doesn't) is to keep it as simple as possible and conduct 20% water changes weekly while dripping Kalk daily. The less moving parts the better. I keep it simple and may only test my ALK and CA twice a year at best. PH and temperature are of course monitored daily.

-Sonny

 

[terraincognita]

Perhaps the question should be what is the simplest method of achieving the best results. For me, dollar for dollar, water changes and KALK have always done the job and produced exception results. The more trace elements and other concoctions that you dose ends up costing you down the line. Whether it be expensive tests or time, there is a cost associated with each method.

Again, my preference, even if it costs slight more(It my case it doesn't) is to keep it as simple as possible and conduct 20% water changes weekly while dripping Kalk daily. The less moving parts the better. I keep it simple and may only test my ALK and CA twice a year at best. PH and temperature are of course monitored daily.

-Sonny

This is exactly why this question never dies.

Water changes like Dr. Randy has said accomplishes "X said product/effect"

Reefers I think can find ways to replace/remove (maybe not every part of it) but the major parts that are needed for good various coral growth. enough at least that it "works" consistently, evidence hundreds of beautiful "no water change" tanks.

By dosing additives, and using other mechanical filtration to remove other elements.

I think until we have a way to somehow completely understand the complete biological and chemical workings of all types of aquarium life we won't be able to really answer this.

And I think that's hundreds of years in the future. We don't even fully understand to that detail every single organ of the human body.

 

[Jax15]

I like the poster here who said it’s like opening a window to let in fresh air. It definitely helps. But I more so treat it as another nutrient export method. AWC for 15% weekly water replacement... it’s just one more way to have heavy food in, heavy export out. It working so why change anything?

 

[stanlalee]

Anecdotally I'm going with beneficial. Not sure about ABSOLUTELY necessary in an established reef with appropriate equipment and dosing. I also don't want my $34/bucket RC costing $100/bucket when I need salt because we've collectively decided we don't need water changes. For reefs where skimmers and/or fuges won't fit or aren't used water changes are going to be a mainstay.

 

[Mrreefercanada]

I perform 10% once a month. I see visually the benefit in my corals after it's done. Better colour and polyp extensions which leads me to believe the corals are happy about it. There are certain elements that tests don't pick up on that need replacement in a closed reef system.

 

[adobo]

Reef tanks are anti-scientific.

If you work in any field of scientific research, you focus on a niche subject and dig as deep as you can on that subject.

Understanding a reef tank requires the opposite, you need to connect dots from a wide variety of areas.

I guess that may help to explain why most experts in any area related to reef tanks don't have spectacular tanks

Regarding water changes, the samething applies. They affect a wide variety of things in the tank in many ways and they may help some aspects of some tanks and not so much in others, depending on the tank type and how it's managed.

Maybe.

But the question is, "are water changes a thing of the past? "

If we don't apply some sort of method to answering the question, then we don't really wind up any more enlightened at the end of the exercise than we were when we started.

To begin with, the question itself is so vague that the only way to answer it is, it depends. The answer to this question for a new/immature reef tank may be different than the answer for a mature reef tank. And what does it mean when we ask, "is it a thing of the past?" Are we asking if whatever benefits a water change provides can be accomplished in other less expensive / involved ways? Or are we asking if it has been determined that water changes provide no benefits?

A vague question is posted and most people are answering with "I feel this" or "I feel that". I guess its fun to participate in such a discussion but I don't see any new insight or enlightenment happening if this is all the discussion is going to be.

 

[Kris 2020]

It's like letting fresh air into the room.

Great analogy!

 

[Jerad81]

I'm still pretty new to the hobby so I don't have much experience on the topic yet. But, based on what I have seen so far:

1. Yes, I believe water changes are beneficial, at least for new tanks or new reefers. I've already had a pretty massive algae invasion in my tank that wiped out everything and would not go away no matter what I did until I started doing frequent water changes.

2. No, I don't believe they are necessary for the long-term health of a tank. I've read through a lot of posts from people who never do them and they're tanks are beautiful!! I believe with the proper experience and knowledge how to deal with problems that show up, water changes are not necessary. Although I do believe water changes make it easier to deal with those problems but they might disagree with me.

3. I do about 15% water changes every 1-2 weeks. Being new to the hobby (and having recently recovered from my algae invasion) water changes are an easy way to help keep my tank healthy. As I gain experience I will do them less often but I don't know if I will ever stop completely. I guess we'll see how far my comfort zone grows lol.

 

[NigelRichardson]

I'm clearly an expert on this subject - having had my first tank up and running for all of about a month already

I am fascinated by the discussion (I've not read all the comments in this thread, but certainly most of them), and there appear to be more opinions than there are people commenting - which in itself suggests there may be no "Right" answer for all...

I've been advised to change 10% a week, which I'll be doing - because I'm a noob, I have no idea what I'm doing (yet), and I trust the people at my LFS.

Oh - and since I don't have an RODI system at home (yet - I'm in Melbourne, a city with extreme CV-19 restrictions right now, so no way to get one installed) I'm carting water from LFS - lucky for me (a) They're only 2 mins away in the car and (b) They charge the same for Salt as they do straight RO water.

I don't know if the 10% weekly change regime I've put myself on is necessary, but I do hope its not doing any harm...

 

[tripdad]

I'll toss my .02 in here.....Yes, there are reefers who do zero water changes and have great success. They are almost always experienced reefers on their 4th, 5th,10th tank. They can read a corals health from across the room and grow SPS like I grow dandelions in my yard. For the vast majority, my opinion only, water changes are an easy, cost effective way of checks and balances to help us succeed. If we were all masters then their tanks wouldn't stand out, head and shoulders above the rest. So if we can have more successful people with something as simple as water changes then I think it's good for the hobby. More success, more stick around, hobby flourishes and expands. We end up a larger more successful group with more tanks to share and enjoy. All thanks to the lowly water change. One caveat....in the not so distant future water use may be at a premium so bless those no water change trailblazers for thier work.

 

[Ippyroy]

I feel like no water changes can be a goal, but not a starting point. We constantly hear from people who say they are successful with no water changes, and people who swear by them. The people you seldomly hear from are the ones who did no water changes and failed.
The people who say that it is the salt sellers who push water changes need to go away. I will bet that the profit margin on salt mix is very low, especially for the online vendors. I will go even further and say that most of the big ones probably lose money on most buckets sold. Shipping is expensive and having to resend a bucket takes away what little profit there was.
Once the reefer and the tank have both matured the ability to not do regular water changes can be reassessed.

 

[terraincognita]

I noticed a lot of people saying you can't do this with a New tank, but maybe for older tanks.

I don't think that is the actual denominator.

I think you can do it with any tank, the "maturity" needs to be with the reefer, not the tank.

When you really understand what you're accomplishing with the water changes you can make the decision for yourself.

You have to however change your regimen COMPLETELY to match with the no water changes, you can't follow someone doing weekly devoted water change regimen and expect the same results.

But knowing how and what only comes with time, experience, understanding, and knowledge.

Therefore making WC's a very successful and easy option for any and all reefers, like others have stated as well.

Evidence:



& my own experience.

Here's my 10G, no WC's to date.

I haven't stuck my hand in this tank for over a month.... I haven't even cleaned it.... which is also why my Digita Monti is on the sandbed... still growing by the way hahaha...

I just feed it when I remember and I'm feeding my 45 and have some "left over"

Yes I see the green Cyano mat, but again to me that's also an EASY Fix. To some brand new reefers they freak out when they see 1 tiny piece of Cyano.

I've just been way more consumed with healing my Nem and finishing my 45 up.

AS A NOTE! I OFTEN USE WATER CHANGES FOR A SOLUTION TO SOMETHING LIKE CYANO, COUPLED WITH OTHER CLEANING AND SOME TECHINIQUES, INSTEAD OF OTHER HARSH TREATMENTS.

Again..... It's all just knowledge.... new drivers drive in the right lane, others drive in the left.

Old drivers drive in the right lane too, because they want to.

Up to you. Not a point of better or smarter reefing. All just different ways to accomplish the same goal.