If you had fish, fish poop, and light is all that any photosynthetic coral needs to survive.
Stop dosing all the crap you are, and get a couple fish to feed the coral.
Stop dosing all the crap you are, and get a couple fish to feed the coral.
This hobby is just impossible!
- Thread starter FrostyKevin
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Kevin, you are creating situations that you need to put band-aid's on. There are many people on this forum that dole out questionable advice. But not with this thread. Somewhere along the line you either got some bad advice or listened to too many manufacturers claims of what you need to do and misinterpreted that in a negative way. Maybe a bit of both. If you don't want fish, that’s fine, but you do not have to superdose to make up for it. You need to do more testing, in that I mean, let's say you start from scratch. 100% water change and take your ATS off line. On the first day do your standard dosing (which at this point in your tank you do not need, but I am humoring you) then test your water. After one week, test your water again, this will tell you how much nutrients your corals are using. That should be the amount you are dosing, if at all.
The corals you have are Photosynthetic, that means they have a symbiotic relationship with Zooxanthellae algae. That algae produces food for the coral, the coral does not need any outside help with the proper lighting.
Which brings up lighting. Yours is too low. If you want to save the few corals you have, you need to bring the lighting up slowly. Maybe use the acclimation setting on your AI. Look at the pictures of my tank in the earlier part of the post. I have Mushrooms in there as well as some SPS.
All the answers to your questions are out there. Watch some BRS videos, read some books and articles. Understand how keeping a reef tank works and doesn’t work.
What you are doing obviously is not working, you need to rectify that by doing the proper research. If you do not want to do the research, just get out now. Sell your stuff and call it a day. But if you want to stay in this hobby...
You need to do better.
TheyGaveItToMe
Active Member
This an very old outdated view point.
10 gallons requires changing filter floss and do 2-3 gallon water change once a week. No dosing, no skimmer to clean, no filter socks/roller mat. Any idiot can keep a successful Nano, without ever owning a single test kit by just doing the water changes consistently and not screwing with things chasing perfect numbers. Literally any problem can be rectified with a 5 gallon bucket worth of saltwater.
Larger aquariums are not easier both in terms of water chemistry and actual work.
TheyGaveItToMe
Active Member
This is absolutely nonsense. The evaporation rate is the same in 10 gallons as in 200 gallons. And the water to salt ratio is the same. In your 200 gallons you may have lost 2 gallons, while in 10 gallons you would have lost 1/10 of a gallon.
My 5 gallon doesn't have an ATO and I only top it off by hand every few days.
TheReefDiary
Valuable Member
If things are bleaching you're cooking them with the lights. Your nitrates are a bit high as well, not like omg this is so bad, but I'd prefer in the 20s at least. Also you could have very poor flow in the tank as corals need a lot of flow to thrive (not aggressive flow, but solid water movement throughout the tank). Also I think your salinity should really be 1.025 or 1.026 not 1.023.I just can't figure out what's wrong with my tank. I tried keeping coral 10 years ago and they all died without me ever figuring out the problem. I figured I'd try again this year, but my coral are dying and I can't figure it out again.
I got a 10 gallon tank and cycled it for 2 months in the dark. No diatoms or cyano ever broke out. It went perfectly. Ammonia converted to nitrate within hours.
Set Up:
AI Prime HD: 25% for UV, Royal Blue, Violet, and Blue for 7 hours with 1 hour for ramp up and another hour for ramp down; 10% whites for 2 hours with 30 min ramp up and down time.
Algae turf scrubber: For nutrient export. Since I'm not keeping any fish, shrimp, crabs, snails, etc., I'm dosing Red Sea AB+ and Brightwell Nitrate and phosphate to keep nutrients up.
Parameters:
Temp: 78F (using Inkbird temp controller)
Nitrates: 30-40 ppm (using Hanna Checker)
Phosphate: 0.10-0.20 ppm (using Hanna Checker)
dKH: ~8
SG: 1.023 (increasing this slowly to 1.024)
Livestock:
GSP: Almost dead within a few months
Zoas: Some open, other frags closed, and 2 frags completely died
Ricordea Florida: 1 bleached and didn't survive, another bleached but hanging in there. All other ricordea lost some bubbles and became smooth and dark blue (see photos)
Rhodactis Mushroom: 1 bleached, one doing very well, and one lost it's texture and became smooth (see before and after photo below).
Candy Crush mushroom: died within a month
St. Thomas Mushroom: Doing very well.
Before:
After:
Besides that not sure what else to recommend. I'd stop dosing until you definitively need it to sustain the nutrients and in such a new tank I doubt you need them yet unless you really stocked it with corals.
d2mini
5000 Club Member
With all due respect, I think you are missing the point. I totally agree with you that things like water changes and daily maintenance are easier but that's not what we are talking about. If you are used to taking care of a larger tank, a nano shouldn't pose any problems and you'll find many things about it to be easier overall. But what we are concerned with here is stability, the most important part of reefkeeping. When mistakes are made (which there inevitably will be, especially with someone who is new), things go south much easier/quicker on a small water volume compared to a large one. This is what people are talking about when they say it's easier to start the hobby with a larger tank. Personally, I think something like a 50-70g range is the sweet spot. Small enough to not be overwhelmed physically or financially, but enough water volume (especially if you add a sump) to help keep things relatively stable.
Fishy888
2500 Club Member
I totally agree. Larger tanks are easier especially when talking about stability. Of course you could keep SPS in a fishbowl. It's always going to be easier to keep SPS in a larger tank due to the stability especially for a new reefer or a reefer trying SPS or even LPS for the first time.
92Miata
Valuable Member
Can we stop repeating this please?
Bleaching means the ejection of zooxanthelle - nothing more. There are ALL SORTS of causes. Corals will bleach in phosphate starvation. They'll bleach in nitrogen starvation. They'll bleach at too high temperatures. They'll bleach at too low pH. They'll bleach when alkalinity gets too high. They'll bleach in too high light. And they'll bleach as a last ditch effort to extend their lives when they're not receiving sugar back from zooxanthelle because they're not getting enough light.
He's running an AI prime at 10%. He could physically lie it on top of the coral and it wouldn't be getting too much light.
92Miata
Valuable Member
As someone who has kept SPS in a fishbowl, and maintained systems of several thousand gallons - the fishbowl was easier.
"Bigger tanks are more stable" is 30 years out of date - and comes from a time when we didn't have reliable ATOs, didn't have good small pumps, control equipment was prohibitively expensive, and we didn't have any decent lighting solutions for smaller tanks (nothing was dimmable). None of that is true anymore - especially if you live in a climate controlled house.
My first tank back in the 90s was a 20g with a 250w HQI MH. That tank was a bit unstable - I wanted to do high light corals, and that was really the only lighting option for them - but it caused temp spikes, the rapid photosynthesis followed by photoinhibition yoyo'd my alk around, I was topping off manually, etc. It was unstable. Today though? That's not how things work.
I have a bunch of tanks - the smaller ones are the most stable - because maintenance is a 2 minute job. I can scrape the glass on the Nuvo10 in 10 seconds. It takes me 30 minutes to do the 6 foot tank. I can do a 50% water change in about 2 minutes on the Nuvo10. Doing a 20% change on the 6 footer involves a trash barrel, hoses out the front door, multiple pumps, making sure the cats don't get out, etc. It's a giant pain, so it doesn't happen as often.
The only real advantage big tanks have is you can keep bigger livestock, and create cooler aquascapes. If I had basically no time for reefing - I'd have a reef vase. Feed once a week, followed by a 100% water change, and that's it.
Fishy888
2500 Club Member
This needed to be said.
Coral can/will be bleach when overstressed. I should of worded my statement better.
Looking at his numbers for N and P and the pictures of coral. Looks like too much light intensity, IMO.
Fishy888
2500 Club Member
These are good points too. I guess I'm fortunate that I have a 90 gallon tank so I get the best of both worlds. I still feel that getting the biggest tank you can afford as a newbie is the best way to start. Most new reefers are going to make mistakes that might make things harder in a larger tank but utterly crash a small tank. Plus one can have much more enjoyable aquascapes and far more corals, colonies at that. Just my opinion though.
What’s the PAR because none of what you keep needs bright lights and the intensity might be too high. It’s only a ten gallon therefore height likely not much.
Not sure I’d use an algal scrubber or refugium without fish present. Plus no need to overfeed corals.
This might help.
Not sure I’d use an algal scrubber or refugium without fish present. Plus no need to overfeed corals.
This might help.
Lineatus
Active Member
The light intensity is certainly not too high. I run the same lights at 60% intensity on a 10g and am having success with mushrooms, even near the surface. The lights are too low not too high imo.
What's the PAR? Post ICP, I'd rent one and check that if results from ICP aren't telling.
Alexopora
Well-Known Member
I have to agree with many of you that lighting doesnt seem to be the sole defining issue. And it could be multiple factors colliding together that is ultimately stressing OP’s corals.
1. The questionable filtration-nutrient export method. Like why remove Nitrates Phospates with a turf scrubber only to dose it back in? And the justification is that, OP doesnt want the nitrates & phosphates to go out of control. Like??? The only reason why OP faces an excess of nitrates and phospates, is overfeeding. Something will always be consuming nitrates & phospates, like for example algae, corals or anaerobic bacterias. But by adding a turf scrubber its basically stripping the tank of these nutrients before the corals, anaerobic bacteria and algae that will form on the rockwork/sand/glass are able to take it up. Then, OPs solution to this instead of just removing the algae scrubber, is to just dose even more nitrates and phospates?? ATP is OP trying to keep corals or the algae in the turf scrubber? It really seems that OP is just trying to prevent an ugly phase instead of letting it come and pass. Remember the ugly phase isnt necessarily bad, its just a point of time where different species of algae undergo a population bloom until they find an equilibrium. And nice mature tank ≠ no algae at all. The very nuisance algae may still be there just kept in check by other organisms (e.g. other algae, bacteria, corals).
2. What is the tank’s flow? A few of us have been asking but till now not a single drop of information on the tanks flow. And let me expand on this, any filters being used? HOB? Canister? I doubt a sump is being employed judging from the size of the tank. Personal experience of mine is that no matter the coral, some degree of flow is a must. We want to see them “dance”. High flow can force shrooms to shrink and ultimately either outright die or release their footing and fly around the tank. Too little, as well the shrooms will shrink as well and just either melt away or shrink into oblivion. Flow is going to bring nutrients, essential elements and obviously the necessary gases to the corals as well take away the waste. I’m pretty sure OP should at least already know this basic knowledge.
3. Feeding
In my personal experience as well as other reefers experience, shrooms esp Ricordea rather consume solid food like mysis. Has OP observed the shrooms actually catching/trapping the reef roids and then folding inwards with their mouths in a pouty position/opening up? Or does the reef roids just stumble/roll over the shrooms?
1. The questionable filtration-nutrient export method. Like why remove Nitrates Phospates with a turf scrubber only to dose it back in? And the justification is that, OP doesnt want the nitrates & phosphates to go out of control. Like??? The only reason why OP faces an excess of nitrates and phospates, is overfeeding. Something will always be consuming nitrates & phospates, like for example algae, corals or anaerobic bacterias. But by adding a turf scrubber its basically stripping the tank of these nutrients before the corals, anaerobic bacteria and algae that will form on the rockwork/sand/glass are able to take it up. Then, OPs solution to this instead of just removing the algae scrubber, is to just dose even more nitrates and phospates?? ATP is OP trying to keep corals or the algae in the turf scrubber? It really seems that OP is just trying to prevent an ugly phase instead of letting it come and pass. Remember the ugly phase isnt necessarily bad, its just a point of time where different species of algae undergo a population bloom until they find an equilibrium. And nice mature tank ≠ no algae at all. The very nuisance algae may still be there just kept in check by other organisms (e.g. other algae, bacteria, corals).
2. What is the tank’s flow? A few of us have been asking but till now not a single drop of information on the tanks flow. And let me expand on this, any filters being used? HOB? Canister? I doubt a sump is being employed judging from the size of the tank. Personal experience of mine is that no matter the coral, some degree of flow is a must. We want to see them “dance”. High flow can force shrooms to shrink and ultimately either outright die or release their footing and fly around the tank. Too little, as well the shrooms will shrink as well and just either melt away or shrink into oblivion. Flow is going to bring nutrients, essential elements and obviously the necessary gases to the corals as well take away the waste. I’m pretty sure OP should at least already know this basic knowledge.
3. Feeding
In my personal experience as well as other reefers experience, shrooms esp Ricordea rather consume solid food like mysis. Has OP observed the shrooms actually catching/trapping the reef roids and then folding inwards with their mouths in a pouty position/opening up? Or does the reef roids just stumble/roll over the shrooms?
Last edited:
Jase4224
Well-Known Member
@FrostyKevin lets re-cap on the majority of consensus seems to be here..
1. Stop justifying your actions that have the result of dying corals and listen to the people here that do keep them alive.
2. Your lights are set too weak. Raise 10% every couple of weeks until you get to 60% then leave it alone.
3. Remove that useless ATS. you only think you need it because you are putting nutrients into your tank your corals don’t need.
4. N + P are too high. Dose WAY less if any at all. If you must dose then just dose the water change water at a very low rate. If your N + P climbs then stop adding. So simple.
5. Stop feeding reef Roids. You don’t even have corals that require feeding so what the?? This is just polluting your tank for no benefit. If you want to feed aminos then fine but at half dose.
6. Large regular water changes. This will STABILISE your parameters so they can’t swing and provide your corals need. 50% weekly is so easy and will solve almost all of your problems.
7. Get a small fish. One dottyback would be amazing. Feeding this fish will give your corals some nutrients but doing large water changes will prevent N + P from climbing
8. Get a new salinity tester.
This is what almost everyone is telling you so surely this is a big enough clue..? Your corals are dying so try this out you have only to gain.
Ill add my personal tip and that is vacuum your sand bed whilst doing a 80+% water change to start with. This will remove any buildup of crap from your reef Roids feeding and reset your parameters to desired numbers. Go from there.
If you can’t take the accumulated consensus from everyone here trying to help you perhaps try a hobby that doesn’t require keeping things alive. But honestly we’d like to see you succeed. Good luck.
1. Stop justifying your actions that have the result of dying corals and listen to the people here that do keep them alive.
2. Your lights are set too weak. Raise 10% every couple of weeks until you get to 60% then leave it alone.
3. Remove that useless ATS. you only think you need it because you are putting nutrients into your tank your corals don’t need.
4. N + P are too high. Dose WAY less if any at all. If you must dose then just dose the water change water at a very low rate. If your N + P climbs then stop adding. So simple.
5. Stop feeding reef Roids. You don’t even have corals that require feeding so what the?? This is just polluting your tank for no benefit. If you want to feed aminos then fine but at half dose.
6. Large regular water changes. This will STABILISE your parameters so they can’t swing and provide your corals need. 50% weekly is so easy and will solve almost all of your problems.
7. Get a small fish. One dottyback would be amazing. Feeding this fish will give your corals some nutrients but doing large water changes will prevent N + P from climbing
8. Get a new salinity tester.
This is what almost everyone is telling you so surely this is a big enough clue..? Your corals are dying so try this out you have only to gain.
Ill add my personal tip and that is vacuum your sand bed whilst doing a 80+% water change to start with. This will remove any buildup of crap from your reef Roids feeding and reset your parameters to desired numbers. Go from there.
If you can’t take the accumulated consensus from everyone here trying to help you perhaps try a hobby that doesn’t require keeping things alive. But honestly we’d like to see you succeed. Good luck.
Feels like too much at once, running an algae scrubber on a small tank while dosing all of that to raise nutrients/feed, with N/P already a little high for a new tank without significant livestock, doesn’t make sense.
emmysnewtank
Active Member
I think this is just a troll thread to wind up the reefer community.
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