Thoughts on methods of eliminating water changes ?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The main issue with trace elements I believe is Ionic balance rather than "feeding" your corals. Understanding the Full Balling method gives a good picture of this.

I agree that no method can account for trace element depletion rates.

FWIW, there's a lot of misunderstanding on how Balling differs from a two part like B-ionic (there's no functional difference in terms of trace elements, at least as far as the claims go), but that said, neither of these methods even tries to account for demand from trace elements that comes from noncalcifying photosynthetic organisms such as soft corals, algae, diatoms, cyanobacteria, etc.. In some tanks, that demand may be far bigger than from calcifying organisms that are more likely to have depletion tied to calcium and alkalinity demand.

 

[Donovan Joannes]

Or potentially no skimmer. If your ATS or fuge is managing nutrients well enough do you need one?

My skimmer is nicely packed and has been collecting dust for more than 3 months now. I have faith in my bacteria driven denitrator, and coffee strainer as filter socks.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Or potentially no skimmer. If your ATS or fuge is managing nutrients well enough do you need one? I'm not sure I buy into a skimmer being a major source of containments but if that's the case you can build a system that doesn't require one.

IMO, aeration may be the biggest benefit of a skimmer. When I turned mine off for a few months as an experiment, the biggest (only, really) impact was on aeration, which I could tell by the pH. Since I use limewater, the range of pH rose beyond where I wanted it to be, and I returned the skimmer to service.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My skimmer is nicely packed and has been collecting dust for more than 3 months now. I have faith in my bacteria driven denitrator, and coffee strainer as filter socks.

Do you use GAC? Somehow you'd want to export organic matter.

 

[Keiffer the reefer]

Or potentially no skimmer. If your ATS or fuge is managing nutrients well enough do you need one? I'm not sure I buy into a skimmer being a major source of containments but if that's the case you can build a system that doesn't require one.

I don't think you need a skimmer. My system has been skimmerless since the beginning. I've got plenty of lumps on my head from learning the hard way, but my system has never had NO3 or PO4 problems.

 

[Donovan Joannes]

Do you use GAC? Somehow you'd want to export organic matter.

Yes, I do have a small bag in my sump. Replaced monthly.

 

[Mark Gray]

I am kind of waiting to see how the BRS test comes out on their Triton method om their tank

 

[Ryanbrs]

I know we can't test for the build up for certain contaminants (hand soap, air fresheners, etc) but wouldn't large (80%?) water changes be necessary every now and then to course correct so to speak? I'm all up for no water changes, but until we can test for all contaminants, I don't think completely NO water changes would be the healthiest for our reefs. Perhaps like others have mentioned, large annual or biannual water changes to compensate for the eventual build up of the unknowns would be a wise practice.

On the other hand, who's to say that between a good carbon media regimen and a good skimmer that these contaminants aren't already being properly removed from the tank? I mean, as stated many times above, we can't test them, we have NO IDEA what the levels of concentration are.

Food for thought.

I think a better way to say it is no maintenance water changes. That leaves room for the types of annual or semiannual turn overs you are discussing.

 

[Ryanbrs]

When every parameters are good but inhabitants are dying, you know there is (are) something in there causing it.

First sign (my experience) of contaminants was inverts dying and acting funny. Their movement slows down overtime and eventually stop moving/eating and died due to starvation. I "bought" a few snails from the beach, slow dripping for acclamation, after a few minutes they stop moving completely. I made a small batch of IO saltwater (using it to adjust my SG when it drops due to skimming), all of them quickly returned to normal in this new saltwater. 80 litres WC was done right away with NSW. Made an activated carbon filter for my skimmer and no more dying inverts before I decommissioned my skimmer.

What an interesting experience.

 

[Donovan Joannes]

What an interesting experience.

Yup. I think all skimmers must come with activated carbon filter as standard package.

 

[Ryanbrs]

IMO, aeration may be the biggest benefit of a skimmer. When I turned mine off for a few months as an experiment, the biggest (only, really) impact was on aeration, which I could tell by the pH. Since I use limewater, the range of pH rose beyond where I wanted it to be, and I returned the skimmer to service.

Interesting. If you were not using Kalk do you think you might have left it off? I know we all use them and it's part of the DNA of reefing but it's hard not to wonder if they are really worth the time, space, effort, and expense. Just seems like there are easier ways to achieve the same or similar results.

 

[Ryanbrs]

I am kind of waiting to see how the BRS test comes out on their Triton method om their tank

I am obviously pretty interested in how that turns out as well : ) Both on the visual growth and coloration results but also what the test reports end up looking like. I know this is largely anecdotal and this type of testing isn't flawless but it will certainly be the closest, most consistent and reasonably well documented look at any tank I have run. Hopefully, in a year or so there will some valuable nuggets in there : )

Outside of that, I have to say I am considering setting up a few tanks in my personal office designed around eliminating as many water changes as possible and documenting the results over a couple years. Since they are all very different I think I might consider three tanks, a softy/polype tank, LPS tank, and SPS tank. I haven't put a ton of thought into it but I do think I would have a different approach to managing the four concerns in each type of tank.

• Some degree of major, minor and trace element replenishment.
• Manage undesirable Nitrate and Phosphate build up.
• Reduce undesirable yellowing pigments and odors from the tank.
• Reduce general contaminant accumulation from impurities in foods, additives and unintentional additions from hands, kids, cleaning agents, air ...

Do you all think the approach would be the same for each tank type or different? For example, I think I would put more effort into replacing elements with the SPS tank than LPS simply because the SPS tank may consume these elements faster and the resulting deficiencies may end up being more significant.

 

[tsav87]

Do you all think the approach would be the same for each tank type or different? For example, I think I would put more effort into replacing elements with the SPS tank than LPS simply because the SPS tank may consume these elements faster and the resulting deficiencies may end up being more significant.

Would you be using Triton? The basic thought with the Triton method is that the consumption to Alk is in a 1:1 ratio with all other elements used. With that train of thought, the only differences in your three tanks would be the amount of Triton's Elementz dosed daily.

 

[tsav87]

@Randy Holmes-Farley, would a build up of elements cause precipitation? In other words, if we are adding in an incorrect amount of elements over time, would it cause precipitation of those elements?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Interesting. If you were not using Kalk do you think you might have left it off? I know we all use them and it's part of the DNA of reefing but it's hard not to wonder if they are really worth the time, space, effort, and expense. Just seems like there are easier ways to achieve the same or similar results.

I'm not sure. The effects on O2 alone may make them desirable for many tanks, even without pH issues.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley, would a build up of elements cause precipitation? In other words, if we are adding in an incorrect amount of elements over time, would it cause precipitation of those elements?

Depends on the elements. Most of the iron many folks dose likely ends up precipitating, but others, like iodide or silicate, won't at any reasonably attained dose.

 

[Lasse]

IMO, aeration may be the biggest benefit of a skimmer.

I totally agree with this – that’s my experiences also. I use to run all of my aquaria without skimmer but with my new – I use a skimmer just for gas exchange. I run it with max aeration and max flow through – very little skimmate

To prevent the build up of organic compounds such as humus (yellow matter) I use an oxidator from Söchting. My water is total clear and also rich in oxygen even during night time

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Ryanbrs]

Would you be using Triton? The basic thought with the Triton method is that the consumption to Alk is in a 1:1 ratio with all other elements used. With that train of thought, the only differences in your three tanks would be the amount of Triton's Elementz dosed daily.

Well, we are using Triton on the 160 so I think I would like try some different approaches as well.

 

[ksfulk]

I am obviously pretty interested in how that turns out as well : ) Both on the visual growth and coloration results but also what the test reports end up looking like. I know this is largely anecdotal and this type of testing isn't flawless but it will certainly be the closest, most consistent and reasonably well documented look at any tank I have run. Hopefully, in a year or so there will some valuable nuggets in there : )

Outside of that, I have to say I am considering setting up a few tanks in my personal office designed around eliminating as many water changes as possible and documenting the results over a couple years. Since they are all very different I think I might consider three tanks, a softy/polype tank, LPS tank, and SPS tank. I haven't put a ton of thought into it but I do think I would have a different approach to managing the four concerns in each type of tank.

• Some degree of major, minor and trace element replenishment.
• Manage undesirable Nitrate and Phosphate build up.
• Reduce undesirable yellowing pigments and odors from the tank.
• Reduce general contaminant accumulation from impurities in foods, additives and unintentional additions from hands, kids, cleaning agents, air ...

Do you all think the approach would be the same for each tank type or different? For example, I think I would put more effort into replacing elements with the SPS tank than LPS simply because the SPS tank may consume these elements faster and the resulting deficiencies may end up being more significant.

Three seperate systems or three tanks with one shared sump?

 

[SharkLaser]

I think a better question to ask is what SPS need to thrive and why. If this is the ultimate goal. And the problem is that we don't have the answer to that question yet. We have anecdotal evidence, frequent observations and best guesses. One of those is what I also hear frequently is that our SPS seem to feel/look better every time we do a water change. But we don't fully understand why, they just do.
If we could definitively answer why stable alkalinity is important, why nutrient levels are important, and so on, only then will we definitively say to what extent water changes benefit the SPS. Until then, all we can do is keep guessing based on prior experience and observations.

To that end, Triton seems to have developed a theory that if certain parameters are maintained, then it replicates the parameters of a system with frequent water changes. It happens to also conveniently follow what their ICP is capable of detecting. There is no solid fundamental science behind it. Nothing that explains why parameters are the way they are, other than that's what is typically found in NSW. Their theory is simple, SPS thrive in NSW, NSW has particular parameters, you maintain those parameters with our method, therefore your SPS will also thrive. But this is just a theory without any hard proof or explanation. What I want to know is why exactly SPS thrive in those parameters and what exactly causes problems when those parameters change.