Thoughts on methods of eliminating water changes ?

[Ryanbrs]

I will start this conversation by saying almost everyone I know who has an epic show stopper tank has one thing in common. They all have solid maintenance habits with a consistent water change schedule, some even automated. While not always true on LPS or softy tanks this is almost universally true with long term successful SPS dominant tanks.

That said, I have been reading and thinking about this a lot as of late. Why do we do water changes? Are there better ways of achieving the same goals? Why do some reefers have success without them and others seem to require frequent water changes? I am super curious what everyone thinks about the value of water changes. With everything we have learned about reefing in the last few decades how critical are they? There has been significant discussion about the Triton method in relation to this but I think the conversation absolutely goes well beyond that single commercial method or product.

I guess I'd like to start by focusing the conversation on what is the purpose of these water changes and what are the alternatives? In my mind, there are four main issues that a solid water change schedule addresses.

1. Some degree of major, minor and trace element replenishment.
2. Manage undesirable Nitrate and Phosphate build up.
3. Reduce undesirable yellowing pigments and odors from the tank.
4. Reduce general contaminant accumulation from impurities in foods, additives and unintentional additions from hands, kids, cleaning agents, air ...

I certainly don't think everyone should run out and stop water changes because they have been a pretty integral component of a vast majority of successful reef tanks but looking at this I have to say there seem to be much more effective and easier methods of achieving one though three and four is a bit of a mystery. Just for discussion, would a system with a calcium reactor, functional refugium/ATS, bag of carbon and an annual or semiannual change of a majority of the water achieve a good portion of the same goals with a lot less effort and expense?

More or less are these four functions the reasons you do water changes? Are there other significant reasons? Ideas on better ways to collectively achieve the same goals as a complete approach or method of reefing?

 

[recess62]

following

 

[Scorpius]

I test nutrient related items once a week. Water changes in my tank are done for two purposes.

1. Removing as much waste as possible per water amount removed to control nutrients/waste.
2. Replacing any minor trace elements.

That's it pure and simple.


If you can control nutrients and keep minor/major elements levels where they are supposed to be then hypothetically water changes shouldn't be needed.

 

[Mal11224]

Hi Ryan. I was at reefapalooza and recall having this conversation with you. I agree with the 4 items you mentioned above as being major reasons for water changes, at least in my tank. I test a lot and I often use my results as a basis for when and if I should do a water change. Specifically, nitrates. I've used additives in the past to control nutrients like NOPOX and run a fuge as well as activated carbon and one thing I can say, even without using NOPOX, my phosphates are always zero. I've pushed the limits and waited a month to do a water change as opposed to bi weekly changes and my phosphates always remain zero. so, I definitely want to know how long I can go without doing a water change. There is a person in England who has tested this theory and his tank looked awesome. He went months without doing a water change using supplements and various treatment methods. His name is Nathan Williard on YouTube. So, it seems it can be done. This should be very interesting.

 

[Lawlboom]

Really I do water changes to maintain my sandbed. I try to feed only what they eat but somehow there's always new debris. If I had a bare bottom I probably would only need to do 10% a month just for trace elements. Even then could probably just dose but I'm too lazy to research what I need to supplement.

 

[justingraham]

Look up dsr reefing I think Glenn is the guys name who started it his tank is unbelievable

 

[Oberst Oswald]

In my 1 1/2 year old tank for the last 9 months I've been running the Full Triton Method with no water changes for about 4 months now. Before the 4 month mark I had a aluminum and copper problem and had to do two w/c's to correct. Today I will be doing a 15 gallon w/c on 67 total water volume. The reason is, even though everything looks good and healthy, I just don't have the growth I use to have before Triton and I don't know why. Feed corals, give Acropower, enough light, flow etc and spare no expense to make the tank better. I do Triton water tests about every 2 months apart and religiously follow their recommendations which are not extreme. I'm thinking that maybe there is "something missing" by not doing a water change once in awhile. As a experiment I will see if a w/c will improve or hinder anything which should be noticeable in a reasonable amount of time. Will see how it goes...

 

[Tristren]

I've been seeing this come up as well (through your YouTube videos I suppose, as well as other places). I'm just getting started
in reef keeping and so am thinking about all of the elements of the hobby and what I think my "method" should be. Coming in my philosophy was that I wanted to mimic natural processes as much as reasonably possible and that view hasn't changed yet.

From what I've seen, my inclination is to say the same thing, that #4:

Reduce general contaminant accumulation from impurities in foods, additives and unintentional additions from hands, kids, cleaning agents, air ...

Is the one that can't really be handled otherwise.
I try to always think of the natural analogy (understanding that we are tanking about a glass box as analogous to the ocean). And any section of coral reef always has water coming and going. "New" water streaming in from the deep ocean, and "old" water washing away.
Now we have our sumps, refugiums, filters and reactors that essentially simulate that "rest of the ocean" bit where the water flows away and comes back new and revitalized. And we also have our top up water, which I think of as analogous to rain and runoff from rivers.

I am very interested in the Triton method and am seriously considering it. But part of me thinks that, every now and then, draining away and replacing some of the water still just kind of seems like a good idea. Though maybe as you say, just once or twice a year.

Then again, you see plenty of 10-15 year old tanks that go without....

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

1. Some degree of major, minor and trace element replenishment.
2. Manage undesirable Nitrate and Phosphate build up.
3. Reduce undesirable yellowing pigments and odors from the tank.
4. Reduce general contaminant accumulation from impurities in foods, additives and unintentional additions from hands, kids, cleaning agents, air ...

Assuming you know what to add for 1 (expensive), that leaves #4 as the hard one.

 

[Donovan Joannes]

It can be done. I came across a few with virtually no WC and their tank are amazing. Easy? Definitely not. Impossible? Not at all. I am on my fourth year with virtually no WC (except on two occasion of pollution via skimmer and stupid iron/zinc overdosing) and I am quite happy with it.

 

[Tristren]

It can be done. I came across a few with virtually no WC and their tank are amazing. Easy? Definitely not. Impossible? Not at all. I am on my fourth year with virtually no WC (except on two occasion of pollution via skimmer and stupid iron/zinc overdosing) and I am quite happy with it.

As someone starting out, what is it that you have to do that makes it definitely not easy?

 

[Humblefish]

Check out @FarmerTy's build thread sometime. He has a beautiful SPS/LPS reef and never does water changes.

 

[scott cheek]

To me it all depends on what you what to keep in the tank. To me water is water is water. I have a 155 half circle tank that I am working to get to SPS with a bioload most people would never do. It is as the last 25 years of my life a work in progress.

 

[scott cheek]

 

[Fritzhamer]

My issue with the Trace Element argument is that they are just that, trace elements. As I understand it, these elements aren't needed the way alk and calcium are. They're more like the way we need Vitamin C and the other minerals (in trace elements). I have to know thirty people that haven't so much as touched a citrus fruit in five years yet there's no epidemic of scurvy. We get all these trace elements, in trace amounts, from the varied diet we have. I'm quite suspect of our tanks needing these trace amounts in non-trace dosages.

To put it in terms of the water change analogy I read on a Triton Method site: you setup a new tank, it has 100% of the trace elements it may have from your salt. (100% is a weird number to use to describe this but that's what they used). After several months perhaps 20% of these trace elements are used up. Changing 30% of the water won't bring you back up to 100% because you're removing say 30 gallons of 80% strength water and replacing just that 30 gallons with 100% strength (in trace elements) water. My issue with this logic is that I don't need more than say 4% trace elements if these are indeed "trace" elements. We're not talking about protein here, these are supposedly things needed in trace amounts. If that is true it would seem that a 30% semi-annual water change should provide all the trace elements needed in abundance.

Maybe I'm wrong or maybe "trace elements" was the wrong term to use to describe what's missing. Maybe dosing trace elements isn't the secret sauce but rather the big fuge with a big skimmer Triton recommends is what is doing all the work. The book "Rock Soup" comes to mind.

 

[Mal11224]

You have a nice tank and some beautiful fish. I see you want to start adding SPS corals. I would assume that if you can maintain a stable system and control nutrients a little better, it can be done.

 

[Crashjack]

When I was a kid, even though I was really too old/big I liked swimming in the baby pool where we swam... until I was warned that the little kids peed in the baby pool. All I could think about was that small, shallow, warm pool, and why was it so warm? I get that same feeling when I think about keeping a tank with no water changes. Our tanks are so small and full of living organisms, decaying food, the occasional dead snail or crab, it just seems counterintuitive if not gross to not dilute the system with fresh saltwater on a regular basis.

 

[scott cheek]

Well let's look at it this way. Why do we do water changes?
It is to improve water quality correct? Well I don't believe water goes bad. I think most of the water we are using is reclaimed water that we run through a RODI system to get to 0TDS correct? Then we add the salt that has everything the tank needs and try to get as close to the same water as what is in the tank.
My point being that if the water in the tank stays pure enough I don't see a reason for water changes and I am sure there is a benefit for have a stable long term solution
I am getting very very close to what I would say is a success. Last night the Nitrate was at 10 ppm that was after a huge feeding day three sheets of seaweed 10 cubes and good amount of pellets.

The sulphur reactor from some of what I have read is what process 50% of the water we drink. I was in the hobby for a very very long time before I went to one. That is the single biggest mistake I have made in this hobby and all because someone somewhere said it was a bad idea if there are any other things out there like this please let me know.

I do have a ton of aragonite after the sulphur reactor mixing with the air from a CO2 scrubber. The water coming out is at 7.8 PH by the time it hits the tank. Which is at 8.1-8.3 at all times.

 

[SPR1968]

I'm following along with this and just have a thought on the RODI water added by the ATO.

I have a 100 litre box of RODI which I need to top up every 2 weeks ish just to cope with evaporation. As this is adding pure water to the system could this count towards the water change amount in any way or is it just pure 100% water anyway that's evaporating so it just cancels itself out?

I regularly do the 10% weekly water changes as it doesn't take long for me using a couple of buckets and I appreciate the reasons for reducing nutrients and replacing trace elements etc etc.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

To put it in terms of the water change analogy I read on a Triton Method site: you setup a new tank, it has 100% of the trace elements it may have from your salt. (100% is a weird number to use to describe this but that's what they used). After several months perhaps 20% of these trace elements are used up. Changing 30% of the water won't bring you back up to 100% because you're removing say 30 gallons of 80% strength water and replacing just that 30 gallons with 100% strength (in trace elements) water. My issue with this logic is that I don't need more than say 4% trace elements if these are indeed "trace" elements. We're not talking about protein here, these are supposedly things needed in trace amounts. If that is true it would seem that a 30% semi-annual water change should provide all the trace elements needed in abundance.

Maybe I'm wrong or maybe "trace elements" was the wrong term to use to describe what's missing. Maybe dosing trace elements isn't the secret sauce but rather the big fuge with a big skimmer Triton recommends is what is doing all the work. The book "Rock Soup" comes to mind.

There are two issues with this argument:

1. Most (all) elements that an organisms tries to take up from the water gets harder and harder to obtain as the concentration declines. So as a needed trace element declines, it gets harder to obtain what is needed. Either the organism needs to spend more energy on it (such as by synthesizing more uptake transporters), or it is not getting as much as it wants.

2. Some trace elements (e.g., iron) are known to be in such low supply in the ocean that they are already limiting to the growth of many photosynthetic organisms even at full NSW concentrations. If the levels drop further, growth will be limited for these organisms.

Also, some trace elements (again, take iron as an example) decline rather rapidly. Not by the slow rates you are talking about. I dosed it regularly for that reason.