Treating Uronema with Chloroquine Phosphate Orally

[DanTheShark]

So basically 5-10mg of metro per kg of fish injected, would you also treat the injection site with betadine?

Also, would the back muscle be the best place to inject? And is it typically a one time injection?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

So basically 5-10mg of metro per kg of fish injected, would you also treat the injection site with betadine?

Also, would the back muscle be the best place to inject? And is it typically a one time injection?

Typically, fish injections are done IM, in the back muscle, but you must ensure you are above the kidney. You don’t need to use betadine, but if you decide to, be sure not to get the soap product, and rinse it off prior to returning the fish to the tank (which kind of defeats the purpose).

Again, I’ve never tried this, so I don’t know what other issues might arise.

 

[DanTheShark]

well theres one way to find out I guess. I will keep you posted.

Last question, what were the issues you had using DMSO?

 

[MnFish1]

well theres one way to find out I guess. I will keep you posted.

Last question, what were the issues you had using DMSO?

I think they are fish-specific. Hope this helps:

DMSO, while not a direct toxin to fish in all situations, can cause various physiological and behavioral changes, and even lead to mortality in some species at high concentrations. These effects depend on factors like species, exposure duration, concentration, and other factors.





Here's a more detailed breakdown:


1. Physiological Effects:

• Hematological Changes:
  DMSO can cause changes in blood cell morphology and numbers, including an increase in polychromatocytes (immature red blood cells) and degeneration of red and white blood cells.
  
  
  
  
  
• Organ Damage:
  Studies have shown cellular alterations in gills, kidneys, liver, brain, and spleen after prolonged exposure to DMSO at high concentrations.
  
  
  
  
  
• Metabolic Disruption:
  DMSO can disrupt various metabolic pathways in fish, including those related to amino acid, carbohydrate, lipid, vitamin, and nucleotide metabolism, even at relatively low concentrations.
  
  
  
  
  
• Oxidative Stress:
  DMSO can increase reactive oxygen species (ROS) levels in fish, indicating oxidative stress, especially at higher concentrations.
  
  
  
  
  
• Diuretic Effect:
  DMSO is a diuretic, meaning it increases urine production.
  
  
  
  

2. Behavioral Effects:

• Increased Movement:
  Exposure to DMSO can lead to increased movement, acceleration, and burst movements in fish.
  
  
  
• Hyperpnea:
  DMSO can increase gill ventilation (hyperpnea) in fish, leading to a higher metabolic rate.
  
  
  
  

3. Toxicity and Mortality:

• LD50: The LD50 (lethal dose for 50% of the population) varies depending on the fish species. For example, neon tetras, guppies, and tetras are more sensitive than zebras and catfish.
• Sex Differences: In some species, males are more sensitive to DMSO than females.
• Synergistic Effects: DMSO can interact with other substances, like perfluorooctanesulfonic acid (PFOS) or methylene blue (MB), to amplify toxic effects.

4. Factors Influencing DMSO Effects:

• Concentration: Higher concentrations of DMSO generally lead to more severe effects.
• Exposure Duration: Prolonged exposure can exacerbate the effects of DMSO.
• Species: Different fish species exhibit varying sensitivities to DMSO.
• Temperature: Increased water temperature can enhance the toxicity of DMSO.

In summary, while DMSO itself is not a highly toxic substance, it can cause significant physiological and behavioral changes in fish, especially at higher concentrations and with prolonged exposure. These effects can vary depending on the species and other environmental factors.

 

[MnFish1]

PS - note that diluting Metronidazole in an acidic solution works better than an alkaline solution. I'm assuming one would dissolve it in sterile water as compared to tap water - I don't know if you can get a buffered sterile water for injection that may help with dissolving. (And of course, you wouldn't want to use a very acidic solution.

 

[DanTheShark]

ill start with a low concentration dose for dmso and observe. Now I do have another question.

Does Metronidazole in the water column kill external uronema or or even non pathogenic uronema? Because if it doesn’t even do that, I kinda have little hope for the metro injections

 

[MnFish1]

ill start with a low concentration dose for dmso and observe. Now I do have another question.

Does Metronidazole in the water column kill external uronema or or even non pathogenic uronema? Because if it doesn’t even do that, I kinda have little hope for the metro injections

So - it really doesn't matter, because Uronema is found in many tanks with healthy fish. In other words - you don't need to remove it from the tank to have a successful reef tank. Treating the fish should work (if it's going to work) whether there is residual uronema in the tank or not.

Keeping cleaner conditions, siphoning, etc - can help eliminate uronema from the tank. I would not be concerned about trying to treat it.

 

[DanTheShark]

So - it really doesn't matter, because Uronema is found in many tanks with healthy fish. In other words - you don't need to remove it from the tank to have a successful reef tank. Treating the fish should work (if it's going to work) whether there is residual uronema in the tank or not.

Keeping cleaner conditions, siphoning, etc - can help eliminate uronema from the tank. I would not be concerned about trying to treat it.

Oh what i meant was if metronidazole doesnt even treat for external uronema, I would doubt it would treat for internal even via injection but like you said, doesnt hurt to try. I have heard quite a bit of anecdotes of people using metronidazole for uronema and heard from some that doesn’t work.

 

[MnFish1]

Oh what i meant was if metronidazole doesnt even treat for external uronema, I would doubt it would treat for internal even via injection but like you said, doesnt hurt to try. I have heard quite a bit of anecdotes of people using metronidazole for uronema and heard from some that doesn’t work.

OH - sorry - Metronidazole does treat external uronema - but it's not always effective (may not be). Chloroquine is more often used - but Uronema remains difficult to treat once internal. I don't think you have anything to lose trying your plan

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

well theres one way to find out I guess. I will keep you posted.

Last question, what were the issues you had using DMSO?

The fish seemed to writhe with pain as it went into their tissues (or the target drug caused that). It was pretty distressing for me and the fish. I stopped our vets from trying it in the future (vets like to mess around with novel treatments).

 

[DanTheShark]

The fish seemed to writhe with pain as it went into their tissues (or the target drug caused that). It was pretty distressing for me and the fish. I stopped our vets from trying it in the future (vets like to mess around with novel treatments).

Oof. What was the dosage of DMSO? would it be any better if it was sedated or lower dosage?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Oof. What was the dosage of DMSO? would it be any better if it was sedated or lower dosage?

IDK, it was 15 to 20 years ago. None of my more recent formularies list its use. I do have some doses given in Herwig's 1975 book. Back in the late 1960's, apparently some people tried using it as a transport for formalin, copper and malachite green. I think that is a really bad idea to use DMSO move those compounds into the tissues of fish. Metronidazole is likely a safer choice to try, since the internal dose of chloroquine isn't known (to me). Still, I don't know what dose for either DMSO or metronidazole would be used.....

Herwig gives three doses for malachite green + DMSO:

0.1 ppm MG + 0.5 DMSO = "inhibitory" and not toxic to fish (he uses that term to indicate partial cure)
0.5 ppm + 2.5 = inhibitory but toxic to fish
1 ppm + 5 ppm = toxic to fish

 

[DanTheShark]

IDK, it was 15 to 20 years ago. None of my more recent formularies list its use. I do have some doses given in Herwig's 1975 book. Back in the late 1960's, apparently some people tried using it as a transport for formalin, copper and malachite green. I think that is a really bad idea to use DMSO move those compounds into the tissues of fish. Metronidazole is likely a safer choice to try, since the internal dose of chloroquine isn't known (to me). Still, I don't know what dose for either DMSO or metronidazole would be used.....

Herwig gives three doses for malachite green + DMSO:

0.1 ppm MG + 0.5 DMSO = "inhibitory" and not toxic to fish (he uses that term to indicate partial cure)
0.5 ppm + 2.5 = inhibitory but toxic to fish
1 ppm + 5 ppm = toxic to fish

So, I learned from Polo Reef that they use 5-10mg of metronidazole per kg of fish. I pretty much just want to mainly use dmso as a driver and I guess a solvent. Do they have to be at a certain ratio like the mg and dmso or is that ratio different for metro or does that even matter