Treating Uronema with Chloroquine Phosphate Orally

[DanTheShark]

After a discussion with Jay, I am experimenting 10mg of chloroquine phosphate orally and see if any fish showing symptoms (the dreaded red sore) recovers from that. Only issue is certain fish like anthias are known to be sensitive to chloroquine but also susceptible to uronema. Is 10mg orally harmful to them or is that dose tolerable for them? Obviously I am going to experiment but I just want to have a better idea of what I’m getting into.

Also does Chloroquine Phosphate expire? I have a new batch from the vet but I also have a batch that had an expiration date in 2022.

 

[cdemoss01]

Interesting... @vetteguy53081 !

 

[vetteguy53081]

Cp I believe has a 6 month shelf life once opened and CP when used precisely can be effective

After a discussion with Jay, I am experimenting 10mg of chloroquine phosphate orally and see if any fish showing symptoms (the dreaded red sore) recovers from that. Only issue is certain fish like anthias are known to be sensitive to chloroquine but also susceptible to uronema. Is 10mg orally harmful to them or is that dose tolerable for them? Obviously I am going to experiment but I just want to have a better idea of what I’m getting into.

Also does Chloroquine Phosphate expire? I have a new batch from the vet but I also have a batch that had an expiration date

 

[MnFish1]

After a discussion with Jay, I am experimenting 10mg of chloroquine phosphate orally and see if any fish showing symptoms (the dreaded red sore) recovers from that. Only issue is certain fish like anthias are known to be sensitive to chloroquine but also susceptible to uronema. Is 10mg orally harmful to them or is that dose tolerable for them? Obviously I am going to experiment but I just want to have a better idea of what I’m getting into.

Also does Chloroquine Phosphate expire? I have a new batch from the vet but I also have a batch that had an expiration date in 2022.

The usual dose is 10 mg in 4 liters of water - so 10 mg to a fish - seems high to me - I'm sure Jay will weigh in - @Jay Hemdal (unless he recommended that dose). Additionally - I don't think there is a set expiration - since it depends on how long its sat on the shelf before you bought it - but any medication should have the expiration date on it - and I would definitely not use the expired one.

 

[DanTheShark]

Metronidazole orally doesn’t seem to be strong enough. Before I retired, I was working on chloroquine at around 15 mg/l. That works well on Uronema in the water, but not as well on the inter cellular form. I was going to experiment with an oral dose of 10 mg per kg of fish mass.

The trouble is - you need to treat internal Uronema before any symptoms show. Therefore, you can never tell - did a certain treatment work, or was that fish just not infected?

Oops, I forgot to add in per kg of fish, so we’re talking on basically a eighth of that or less for an anthias.

 

[MnFish1]

Oops, I forgot to add in per kg of fish, so we’re talking on basically a eighth of that or less for an anthias.

Additionally:

The shelf life of chloroquine, when stored properly, is typically 3 years (36 months),
according to Unicef. However, the specific formulation and storage conditions can affect its stability.
Factors Affecting Shelf Life

• Storage Temperature: Chloroquine should be stored at temperatures not exceeding 30°C (86°F) to maintain its stability.
• Light and Moisture: Exposure to light and moisture can degrade the drug, reducing its effectiveness and shelf life.
• Packaging: It's best to store chloroquine in its original packaging to protect it from environmental factors.

 

[MnFish1]

Oops, I forgot to add in per kg of fish, so we’re talking on basically a eighth of that or less for an anthias.

So just doing a quick calculation - Lets say an anthia weighs 2 ounces =0.0567 kilograms so 10 mg/kg would be 10 mg *0.0567 =0.567 mg. (Note example only - I have no clue what an anthia weighs;). Additionally, at least on several sites - not all anthias are sensitive to chloroquine

Here is a method I use to weigh fish. Take a container with tank water - like a small Tupperware, etc add it to a scale without the fish. Zero the scale - and then add the fish. This is not perfect. You can also use a net - weight the net without the fish, then add the fish. This is more stressful - but probably more accurate.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Oops, I forgot to add in per kg of fish, so we’re talking on basically a eighth of that or less for an anthias.

Just checking - you've seen this post, right?

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods Jay Hemdal c. 2020 Oral medications are an excellent way to target internal diseases of fishes. Marine fish absorb aquarium water, so in certain cases, they “drink” enough medication from the water to effect a cure. However, freshwater fish actively export...

www.reef2reef.com

The data doesn't have an exact match for an anthias of normal size, but using similar fish, I'd say that a regular anthias, about 100 mm would weigh about 15 grams. If so, then the dose of 10 mg per kg would equal 0.15 grams (150 mg) for one day's food intake for an anthias. Chloroquine, like metronidazole, is reported to be very bitter. Some fish may not eat it at this dose.

I searched again today for a confirmed oral dose for chloroquine and fish and came up empty again......

 

[DanTheShark]

So just doing a quick calculation - Lets say an anthia weighs 2 ounces =0.0567 kilograms so 10 mg/kg would be 10 mg *0.0567 =0.567 mg. (Note example only - I have no clue what an anthia weighs;). Additionally, at least on several sites - not all anthias are sensitive to chloroquine

Here is a method I use to weigh fish. Take a container with tank water - like a small Tupperware, etc add it to a scale without the fish. Zero the scale - and then add the fish. This is not perfect. You can also use a net - weight the net without the fish, then add the fish. This is more stressful - but probably more accurate.

this is for a nice size square block anthias and I just weighed him, he's about 120 grams.

 

[DanTheShark]

Just checking - you've seen this post, right?

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods Jay Hemdal c. 2020 Oral medications are an excellent way to target internal diseases of fishes. Marine fish absorb aquarium water, so in certain cases, they “drink” enough medication from the water to effect a cure. However, freshwater fish actively export...

www.reef2reef.com

The data doesn't have an exact match for an anthias of normal size, but using similar fish, I'd say that a regular anthias, about 100 mm would weigh about 15 grams. If so, then the dose of 10 mg per kg would equal 0.15 grams (150 mg) for one day's food intake for an anthias. Chloroquine, like metronidazole, is reported to be very bitter. Some fish may not eat it at this dose.

I searched again today for a confirmed oral dose for chloroquine and fish and came up empty again......

I made a blend using hikaris method with grain alcohol, may also try experimenting with tube feeding

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I made a blend using hikaris method with grain alcohol, may also try experimenting with tube feeding

Tube feeding is risky unless you use an anesthetic. Even then, it takes practice to do it correctly and quickly. Here is an article I wrote about this:

Tube / Force Feeding Fish

This article describes methods of tube-feeding and force-feeding fish

www.reef2reef.com

 

[DanTheShark]

Tube feeding is risky unless you use an anesthetic. Even then, it takes practice to do it correctly and quickly. Here is an article I wrote about this:

Tube / Force Feeding Fish

This article describes methods of tube-feeding and force-feeding fish

www.reef2reef.com

This may be a stupid question, but would a chloroquine phosphate bath work if at a higher concentration? Would they ingest the medication in the bath?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

This may be a stupid question, but would a chloroquine phosphate bath work if at a higher concentration? Would they ingest the medication in the bath?

That is always the question when dosing marine fish in a bath medication. Since they drink water all of the time (freshwater fish don’t) the marine fish will ingest some of the medication. Trouble is, calculating the dose they get in 24 is complicated. High dose, short term baths are of little use because the fish drink slowly over time, so a dose suitable for a 24 hour bath is best.
Years ago, I had worked it out one time using some fish physiological data I had found for an antibiotic, and found the dose for 24 hours came up a bit short of the normal oral dose for that medication.

Chloroquine in the water does kill free living Uronema.

 

[DanTheShark]

I got this one angelfish who is starting to show symptoms of uronema sores in my smaller qt system, time to experiment

I probably will just do a 24 hour bath and change out the entire water and redose daily, I will see if theres any improvement.

Will also continue treating orally to that one anthias.

 

[MnFish1]

can you take a picture of the angel?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I got this one angelfish who is starting to show symptoms of uronema sores in my smaller qt system, time to experiment

I probably will just do a 24 hour bath and change out the entire water and redose daily, I will see if theres any improvement.

Will also continue treating orally to that one anthias.

I finally found a reference for oral chloroquine - in a recent manual by Hadfield and Clayton. They report that medicated feed where the chloroquine was 40 grams per kilogram of food for 10 days was ineffective against flukes and protozoans. That's a lot higher than the typical 15 mg per liter bath dose.

I'm thinking that the lack of references for oral chloroquine is because it doesn't work well....

 

[DanTheShark]

I finally found a reference for oral chloroquine - in a recent manual by Hadfield and Clayton. They report that medicated feed where the chloroquine was 40 grams per kilogram of food for 10 days was ineffective against flukes and protozoans. That's a lot higher than the typical 15 mg per liter bath dose.

I'm thinking that the lack of references for oral chloroquine is because it doesn't work well....

Yep, can confirm it does not work. I lost an quite a few angels with symptoms, man this is tough

You mentioned that hypersalinity was potentially a good preventative? What was the salinity? recently I have been bringing it up to 35ppt.

Also would dosing metronidazole be a good preventative? What about dosing formalin to 25ppm?

I was also thinking of copper power along with ozone. ive heard they can work together but not sure if ozone does anything to uronema

gonna keep looking for possible treatments for inner uronema

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yep, can confirm it does not work. I lost an quite a few angels with symptoms, man this is tough

You mentioned that hypersalinity was potentially a good preventative? What was the salinity? recently I have been bringing it up to 35ppt.

Also would dosing metronidazole be a good preventative? What about dosing formalin to 25ppm?

I was also thinking of copper power along with ozone. ive heard they can work together but not sure if ozone does anything to uronema

gonna keep looking for possible treatments for inner uronema

Hyposalinity isn’t really a treatment, but internal Uronema is more commonly seen at lower salinity, so the thought is then it should be less common at higher salinity. 35 ppt is full seawater. I’ve heard people going to 40 ppt, but I’ve not tried it myself.

I’d be worried about using copper power with ozone. I don’t know what the ozone will do to the copper amine bond.

Formalin kills external Uronema, but there is no way it can get to the intercellular form.

 

[DanTheShark]

Hyposalinity isn’t really a treatment, but internal Uronema is more commonly seen at lower salinity, so the thought is then it should be less common at higher salinity. 35 ppt is full seawater. I’ve heard people going to 40 ppt, but I’ve not tried it myself.

I’d be worried about using copper power with ozone. I don’t know what the ozone will do to the copper amine bond.

Formalin kills external Uronema, but there is no way it can get to the intercellular form.

I have heard Polo Reef doing injections for intercellular uronema but I haven’t heard an update on that.

What do you think about sedating a fish with MS-222 and then injecting Metronidazole and/or Chloroquine Phosphate with DMSO. Only issue is I do not know where to inject and what needle to use. I do have access to needles from 18-33 gauge needles. I also do not know dosage for injection but I’m assuming same or less than bath concentration.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

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I have heard Polo Reef doing injections for intercellular uronema but I haven’t heard an update on that.

What do you think about sedating a fish with MS-222 and then injecting Metronidazole and/or Chloroquine Phosphate with DMSO. Only issue is I do not know where to inject and what needle to use. I do have access to needles from 18-33 gauge needles. I also do not know dosage for injection but I’m assuming same or less than bath concentration.

I’ve never tried injections for this, so I can’t say if it would work or not.

Im not a fan of using DMSO in fish - the few times I’ve used it (under veterinary supervision) it had some issues.

I typically use 25 gauge needles on smaller fish, but they clog very easily.