Treatment for rtn with witch hazel

[Rick5]

One more thought. I think @Mike Paletta used a combination of witch hazel and melafix for tissue necrosis. I bought both in anticipation of my move, but never used the melafix. If memory serves, the video @Chaswood79 referred to above includes the dosage Mike Paletta used for witch hazel or melafix. (if I recall, he only mentioned his dosage for one on the video).

I was hoping @pitt would chime in again regarding his experience, but he disappeared. Hopefully he didn't drink witch hazel.

Do NOT drink witch hazel.

 

[Huskymaniac]

One more thought. I think @Mike Paletta used a combination of witch hazel and melafix for tissue necrosis. I bought both in anticipation of my move, but never used the melafix. If memory serves, the video @Chaswood79 referred to above includes the dosage Mike Paletta used for witch hazel or melafix. (if I recall, he only mentioned his dosage for one on the video).

I was hoping @pitt would chime in again regarding his experience, but he disappeared. Hopefully he didn't drink witch hazel.

Do NOT drink witch hazel.

I just have to figure out about leaving the carbon in or taking it out. With all the death that was happening and alleopathy between the corals I don't want to make it worse.

 

[Rick5]

I just have to figure out about leaving the carbon in or taking it out. With all the death that was happening and alleopathy between the corals I don't want to make it worse.

Interesting. How do you extract the carbon?

 

[Huskymaniac]

Interesting. How do you extract the carbon?

It's in a filter bag, lol.

 

[Rick5]

It's in a filter bag, lol.

That made me laugh. I thought you were referring to the alcohol (carbon source) the witch hazel's mixed with.

 

[Huskymaniac]

That made me laugh. I thought you were referring to the alcohol (carbon source) the witch hazel's mixed with.

Haha. Like can I dose the WH at night and then put my carbon back on the tank in the morning?

 

[PSXerholic]

The full blown details of the STN/RTN and associated Witchhazel treatment can be found here on FB where I did release the treatment first time.

Also bear in mind it won't resolve the issues leading to this, the post contains much more info what else need to be done! There is no magic liquid resolving a fundamental aquarium issue leading to the disease outbreak.

Here a raw copy of the text portion.........

Post UPDATED at the Bottom on - 06/24/2020
Attention Reefing community!
I need you to help and share this post wherever possible to get more support on this subject!
Potential candidate against the battle of RTN/STN/Cyano been found!
Need more folks trying this if brave enough since it’s all on your own risk against this issue.
Read carefully:
As many have seen in the beginning of this year I was facing a severe RTN/STN outbreak.
Long story short, there was a culprit in my tank that contributed to the health of the corals likely leading to this outbreak. I posted a lot of microscopic evidence that led to the assumption that there was a bacterial outbreak responsible for the TN. In an attempt of desperation at the end, I used a dip of Witch Hazel to clean the infected corals with a very good survival rate, but corals tend to get reinfected in the tank, and I wasn’t really brave enough to perform a tank treatment with Witch Hazel.
However, with resolving the real culprit of excessive carbonic acids and resulting low PH below 7.8 in the morning, I took some corrective actions and performed some changes on the system which made the corals then resistant and healthy enough to overcome the bacterial infections.
Anyways, I never had the chance (was not really brave enough) to perform a real Tank Treatment with Witch Hazel at the time I had the large outbreak. However there were other people which did do perform this as a Tank treatment with apparently great success.
They were reporting that a Tank Treatment of daily 20ml per 100G were done over the duration of 4-6 days. The results were that interestingly Cyano patches started to disappear which is a great indication that Witch Hazel works against parasitic/pathogenic bacteria in the marine tank.
Last week I saw one minor patch of debris in the middle of a colony that seemed to cause STN around this spot. So I took the Witch Hazel bottle and dosed 20ml per 100Gallon in the evening after light turned off for 5 days. I observed that a minor Cyano spot deteriorated and disappeared by now and the TN spot on the colony shows re-encrusting already!
Under the microscope I did observe that Witch Hazel reduces bacterial count on infected corals, but unsure how much it does affect the bacteria biology in the tank!
So I would love to get peoples feedback, who else has done Tank treatments with Witch Hazel and report your findings on my Facebook profile main post, this was shared from.
If anyone is desperate enough to try this as well, on his own tank, on his own risk ,here are my comments concerning the battle against TN by use of Witch Hazel :
Dose Witch Hazel into the tank after lights are out, daily 20ml per 100G has been done by myself, up to you. Treatments of 4-6 days have been performed. Skimmer does not get affected so far, invertebrates, clams, fish and corals did not show any adverse effects. Actually many corals seem to open up much better next day after first treatment. T.N Dickinson’s Blue label Witch Hazel was used in all treatments, available in grocery stores, do not use other brands or products as substitute.
Avoid any Amino Acids during the battle, this will fuel pathogens!
Avoid the use of Reef Spec carbon, apparently it’s too powerful and will strip too much nutrients that the good bacteria need at the time the battle occurs.
Dose probiotic bacteria, such as Dr.Tim Eco Balance or Biodigest or both! Plenty of other products out there. Avoid other bacteria food for a while. They may fuel the pathogens during an outbreak.
UPDATE: Best results I heard was with the use of BioDigest.
PH shall not be lower than 7.8 in the morning, otherwise you have excessive acid issue. Use better aeration and co2 scrubbers to keep PH naturally up, don’t Bandaid with Kalkwasser or increased ALK levels, that doesn’t really make the carbonic acids disappear!
The "Reef Moonshiner Handbook" has a troubleshooting section that talks about low PH tanks and can be a helpful read against the battle of RTN/STN.
Keep temperature lower than normal. Ideally 76-78 which usually does not cause issues.
Maintain overall Reef chemistry as stable as possible, perform ICP to see if any trace elements are depleted. That is extremely important. Personally I recommend the ATI ICP test.
A lot of times the Reef Moonshiner's community did show lot of evidence that depleted Barium and Bromine levels also were noticed in majority of tanks where these depletions occured, noticed in my case as well!
I strongly recommend to look into the Reef Moonshiner trace element dosing method, that nowadays comes with a ICP test assessment tool and dosing calculation tool that does all the brainwork for you, at the end this tool simply tells you how much solution is required and how to dose it.
Download and start simply with reading the Reef Moonshiner Handbook. Websearch and download it. Can't hurt!
https://andremueller.e-junkie.com/.../Reef...
So with this post, I hope I can spread the word and receive feedback of failure or success.
Let’s hope for the best!!!
Here another informative copy and paste, I did posted few times, maybe a good info:
RTN/STN/CYANO resolution !!!
Unfortunately there is no magic juice that can be simply poured into the tank to resolve the STN/RTN issues in a tank.
From all the microscopic evidence I have published, even while not peer reviewed and not replicated in comparable experiments, it seems to me personally that there are pathogenic bacteria attacking the coral tissue, leading to the loss of the symbiotic relationship between coral and tissue.
Very clearly it seems that infected corals that are weak, can’t self defense themselves to overcome the infection and the disease will spread.
Numerous experiments under timely pressure with all sort of dewormers, disinfecting dips, Hydrogen peroxide, Corals dips, Antibiotic treatments, do show partially positive effects however the reinfection rate is pretty high if the corals or frags are remain in the tank where the real culprit resides still.
The most important thing is to resolve the environmental issue in the tank that led to the coral or tissue weakening fact!
From experience, the most times it is a matter of one or a combination of the below issues:
Trace Elements or Element is depleted to extremely low levels or excessive high and it looks that a depleted trace is worse than an excessive element.
I use to manage the entire Reef Chemistry with the Reef Moonshiner method, which elements are not available in your country, however the method you actually could apply worldwide.
Join the Reef Moonshiner support Group on facebook and read up the so called Reef Moonshiners LITE method post, which gives you a quick and dirty summary of this method. Products and ICP tests I believe are available in your country too

Biology out of whack, means there is an issue with the Nutrients out of balance which goes back to a screwed up diversity of bacteria families. I have published an ebook “Andres Reef Guide Part 1” which talks and covers a lot of the issues on the biology for beginners and even pro reefer for a better understanding and possible solutions what to do in these cases.
Indications of problems are that either PO4 or No3 are high on one end and low on the other, or if any of them are at zero for a longer period of time which is causing an issue too.
Also I do see quite often where people have an issue with excessive carbonic acids, leading to low PH, leading to low O2 levels, due to insufficient degassing of the modern and silent Reef tank systems.
Using simply Kalkwasser or Soda ash to artificially resolve the low PH is not really resolving the issue of excessive Co2 in the water, it’s really only shifting and painting the problem away. However the excessive carbonic acids are still in the tank, even while the PH is then in an acceptable range of not lower than 7.8/7.85 in the morning. A tank that is not supplemented with KW or Soda ash and with sufficient degassing and limited Co2 introduction on the gas intake side, will start with a PH of 7.9 in the morning and has a strong PH increase until the late afternoon as soon the light comes on!
This is an indication of a healthy balance of Co2 concentration. A lot of times the gas exchange through the surface is negative impacted by high Co2 levels in the house, which makes the degassing difficult to achieve

However there are many ways and unfortunately sometimes multiple ways at the same time needed to achieve this goal.
Excessive carbonic acids is the worst influencing factor for TN issues.
High bacteria count is partially a result of the above factors. With high bacteria count of the good bacteria, also the bad pathogens are thriving

I see a lot of folks doing far too much carbohydrates into their tanks to manage low nutrients, which at some point affect the bacteria that causing the outbreak of the disease.
Also other bacteria fuels should be avoided while struggling with TN issues, such as avoidance of Amino acids, Vitamins, Carbohydrates temporarily until the tank is back on track for while.
Keep refreshing bacteria diversity during TN with products like Prodibio Biodigest for example.
Stability is important of mayor traces such as Alkalinity, Calcium and Magnesium. If Alk, Salinity for example changes quickly, that simply causes stress, which at the end is weakening the corals.
If then any of the above factors are the case then, this will be enough to cause the final outbreak, even while the corals were doing fine for long time. It’s just the “enough is enough” reaction from the corals will then be experienced. So try to avoid drastic Alk or Salinity changes, do things slowly in both directions to keep the stress level low.
Many people blame an Alk spike, but the other random environment issues were the real culprit, which without it, the corals would have no issues with the Alk spike!
Keep temperatures low temporarily. With lower temperatures the pathogens do worse than the good bacteria. That is a fact that medical and science knows very well.
Simply drop the tank temperature daily by 1 Fahrenheit / 1 Celsius to get down to 76/77 Fahrenheit to reduce the pathogenic bacteria activity and population rate.
That is a helpful action in the battle against TN.
Allow max aeration on skimmers! That goes back to the low PH issue that many have.
Simply allow the max amount of air going into the skimmer, clean the air diffusor as often as possible to remove the salt creep in the diffusor!
I always tell people a simple trick to avoid a potential air inlet reduction caused by salt creep of up to 30-40% within 48 hours on the skimmer (proven on many skimmers with Flow meters) by simply turning off the skimmer for a minute, multiple times a day via a control system or timer, that will allow to flood the diffusor with water, and get flushed away when the skimmer turns back on!
Then remove stupid silencers to allow more airflow and use Phosban reactors filled with Soda lime or pelletized carbon for silencing instead.
Keep the skimmer clean!
Then also do not hesitate to reduce the light intensity slightly during TN, that helps the corals to recover a bit better.
Dip frags in Witch Hazel if you have it available or Coral dips, but don’t expect a full healing, if the tank culprit is not resolved.
I think this is the high level summary I can recommend you to start to get your tank back on track.
Your tank is sick, likely because of your actions and setup the way it is.
Hard to accept sometimes, but Reef systems are sensitive pieces of nature, which we try to replicate in a few weeks time, what mommy nature took millions of years to create

UPDATE:
Please also read the post from September 11th 2019 !!!!
There the reasons behind TN are better explained which also explains the defense mechanism of corals partially. Then things make much more sense.
Summary of recommended procedure:
20ml Witchhazel per 100Gallon for 7-10 days in the evening
ICP test as per Reef Moonshiner method to ensure nothing is critically depleted. See above Barium/Bromine issues
Temp to be 77 and not higher
Lowest PH not lower than 7.8 in the morning, see notes above on this subject.
Avoid Aminos and carbohydrates for the time of treatment
Keep everything running as usual
Be aware that the Witchhazel will depress the higher level of the PH a bit so for the time during treatment the higher PH will be slightly lower.
Biodigest with 3-4 times the manufacturers recommendation on the first day, then normal amount every other day. Continue the BioDigest biweekly as maintenance, that's what I do with improved biology results and barely issues with Cyano, Dino etc. and all that other annoying stuff

Frag Dip in Hazel were done with 5ml on 1 Liter tank water for 30 minutes. Corals have however high risk of infection.
I may write up a more current summary of this subject soon in the Reef Moonshiner Handbook troubleshooting section or here on Facebook.
Reef on,
Andre

 

[SecondCityCorals]

The use of witch hazel for RTN/STN is just a form of cleansing/mild antiviral/antibiotic/antiseptic agent. I definitely wouldn't be dosing Witch Hazel to my tank outside of a mass STN/RTN crisis.

If Witch Hazel helps you stop your corals from dying, there is a very good chance that either your coral was severely stressed for some reason, and its immune system function was not at 100%. Which let either a virus or bacteria that normally wouldn't take hold start to take over.

OR, some sort of condition or new bacteria got into the tank and started to quickly replicate. Some sort of new bacteria that wasn't there before and completely overtook the immune system of each colony. Either way, there's a microscopic germ warfare going on. And I would again suggest an amoxicillin dip of each coral. Keep in mind, SPS corals are members of the animal kingdom. Their cells are just like your cells. They have flesh just like you have flesh. Just as we are susceptible to pathogens like coronavirus, SPS coral also have issues with pathogenic organisms.

However I previously reported doing a 5-15 minute dip but I would amend that to do maybe 3-5 minutes at first. One dip, rinse with a second dip in a separate container of clean tank water. And then place back in the tank.

Do not dose antibiotics/antiseptics straight to the tank unless you absolutely know exactly how it works, and what the results are on a chemistry level. Only a last ditch, hail mary, lose the tank scenario would I ever dose antibiotics or witch hazel directly to the tank.

I suggest amoxicillin over other antibiotics as well due to its availability but also its biological mechanism of action. Amoxicillin goes to work IMMEDIATELY and directly kills bacterial cells. Whereas some other types of antibiotics only restrict reproduction, but leave the original bacterial cell to live until it dies out.

I currently have a bottle of Fish Aid brand of antibiotics. It comes in a green label marked "for control of common bacterial infections in fish". Each capsule is 500mg of amoxicillin. There are 100 capsules in the bottle. It cost me $19.99.

You can read more here if you like: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268078442_The_immune_responses_of_the_coral

 

[Huskymaniac]

The use of witch hazel for RTN/STN is just a form of cleansing/mild antiviral/antibiotic/antiseptic agent. I definitely wouldn't be dosing Witch Hazel to my tank outside of a mass STN/RTN crisis.

If Witch Hazel helps you stop your corals from dying, there is a very good chance that either your coral was severely stressed for some reason, and its immune system function was not at 100%. Which let either a virus or bacteria that normally wouldn't take hold start to take over.

OR, some sort of condition or new bacteria got into the tank and started to quickly replicate. Some sort of new bacteria that wasn't there before and completely overtook the immune system of each colony. Either way, there's a microscopic germ warfare going on. And I would again suggest an amoxicillin dip of each coral. Keep in mind, SPS corals are members of the animal kingdom. Their cells are just like your cells. They have flesh just like you have flesh. Just as we are susceptible to pathogens like coronavirus, SPS coral also have issues with pathogenic organisms.

However I previously reported doing a 5-15 minute dip but I would amend that to do maybe 3-5 minutes at first. One dip, rinse with a second dip in a separate container of clean tank water. And then place back in the tank.

Do not dose antibiotics/antiseptics straight to the tank unless you absolutely know exactly how it works, and what the results are on a chemistry level. Only a last ditch, hail mary, lose the tank scenario would I ever dose antibiotics or witch hazel directly to the tank.

I suggest amoxicillin over other antibiotics as well due to its availability but also its biological mechanism of action. Amoxicillin goes to work IMMEDIATELY and directly kills bacterial cells. Whereas some other types of antibiotics only restrict reproduction, but leave the original bacterial cell to live until it dies out.

I currently have a bottle of Fish Aid brand of antibiotics. It comes in a green label marked "for control of common bacterial infections in fish". Each capsule is 500mg of amoxicillin. There are 100 capsules in the bottle. It cost me $19.99.

You can read more here if you like: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268078442_The_immune_responses_of_the_coral

I have fish mox. Haven't had the stones yet to use it in the tank. Not sure what impact that antibiotic would have on inverts such as starfish etc. I did setup a separate 20 gallon long tank with my kessil a80 as a temp QT treatment tank. Anything that gets bad enough will be moved into it. As of this morning the daily loss has been minimal. The colonies that were greatly impacted are gone. I still have a green poci, a pink poci, and a style that randomly have a branch stn. Cutting the branch off prevents its from spreading in that area. Not sure things are getting better or if its just a quiet before another storm. I have been doing almost daily water changes and dosed eco-balance. Used the WH in the display 3 days in a row now.

 

[Huskymaniac]

The mystery goes on. My frogspawn has just came down with BJD.

 

[Huskymaniac]

The use of witch hazel for RTN/STN is just a form of cleansing/mild antiviral/antibiotic/antiseptic agent. I definitely wouldn't be dosing Witch Hazel to my tank outside of a mass STN/RTN crisis.

If Witch Hazel helps you stop your corals from dying, there is a very good chance that either your coral was severely stressed for some reason, and its immune system function was not at 100%. Which let either a virus or bacteria that normally wouldn't take hold start to take over.

OR, some sort of condition or new bacteria got into the tank and started to quickly replicate. Some sort of new bacteria that wasn't there before and completely overtook the immune system of each colony. Either way, there's a microscopic germ warfare going on. And I would again suggest an amoxicillin dip of each coral. Keep in mind, SPS corals are members of the animal kingdom. Their cells are just like your cells. They have flesh just like you have flesh. Just as we are susceptible to pathogens like coronavirus, SPS coral also have issues with pathogenic organisms.

However I previously reported doing a 5-15 minute dip but I would amend that to do maybe 3-5 minutes at first. One dip, rinse with a second dip in a separate container of clean tank water. And then place back in the tank.

Do not dose antibiotics/antiseptics straight to the tank unless you absolutely know exactly how it works, and what the results are on a chemistry level. Only a last ditch, hail mary, lose the tank scenario would I ever dose antibiotics or witch hazel directly to the tank.

I suggest amoxicillin over other antibiotics as well due to its availability but also its biological mechanism of action. Amoxicillin goes to work IMMEDIATELY and directly kills bacterial cells. Whereas some other types of antibiotics only restrict reproduction, but leave the original bacterial cell to live until it dies out.

I currently have a bottle of Fish Aid brand of antibiotics. It comes in a green label marked "for control of common bacterial infections in fish". Each capsule is 500mg of amoxicillin. There are 100 capsules in the bottle. It cost me $19.99.

You can read more here if you like: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268078442_The_immune_responses_of_the_coral

What would you recommend for the amox dip? I have it just not sure of the dosage? Still have a few corals that continue to have necrosis.

 

[Superlightman]

hello, some other people have tried it , is it without risk for the fish and corals?

 

[PSXerholic]

Reef Moonhiners Articles and Publications

Easy Reefing, Trace Elements, Coral growth, Coral coloration, Acropora, Reeftank, Reefing, Beautiful Saltwater Tank, Andre Mueller, Reef Moonshiner, Tissue Necrosis, RTN prevention, STN prevention, Reef Maintenance, Cheap Trace Elements, Trace Element Dosing, Rubidium, Vanadium, Liquimud...

www.reefmoonshiners.com

Here is an updated more detailed description of the Witchhazel tank treatment and dip. I did rewrite it and published it on my website so everyone can access it now.

 

[Superlightman]

you write that we should stop the addition of carbon, but actually I have a high nitrate and phosphate issue if I stop it, they may increase a lot?
is this product ok?