Trident FAQ

[CMO]

No not pumps... The original question stands. Rememebr that aquarists will make changes to thier reef tank manually based on results they get. so original question stands... whats the failsafe to the trident?

I know the triton is a measuring tool... hobby grade test kits have a % of accuracy... People are spending all this money on devices that yield the same % of accuracy. whats the point? I purchased a $30 battery operated titration device that automates the titration the same, every time. I see no need for this unless its much more accurate than previouse methods. but then we have ICP testing and this wont be as accurate.

This is all I need right now... https://sunplay.com/products/taylor...MI0O7Kq6Lm3gIVloqzCh2GhQ7REAQYDCABEgKcMPD_BwE

What's the fail safe on a Hannah checker or any other method of testing? Even in your titration test the solution could be a bad batch. While I agree potentially allowing the Trident to control dosing is scary, the risk of the test failing while monitoring only doesn't seem to pose any greater risk than we all have now. And plus, if it did fail, I would suspect most reefers who are going to drop $600+ on this know their tanks well enough to identify an errant reading (and double check with a back up device in that case).

 

[MyReefRobbedMe]

Seems a lot of people are saying “ I’m glad they are waiting to get the bugs fix” ...... BUT you guys are missing something ... the early beta testers DO NOT have them to test , which makes me believe it’s got nothing to do with how it functions and more towards other areas whether that’s patents , original inventor bumping heads with Apex , or manufacturing.. it’s great to be positive for sure but let’s keep it real This was announced a longggg time ago and they aren’t being tested yet

 

[puffy127]

Triton is ICP-OES (Inductively Coupled Plasma-Optical Emission Spectrometry) water testing by sending water samples to Triton Labs.

Trident is Neptune's automated Alk, Ca, and Mg tester.

 

[Muttley000]

What's the fail safe on a Hannah checker or any other method of testing? Even in your titration test the solution could be a bad batch. While I agree potentially allowing the Trident to control dosing is scary, the risk of the test failing while monitoring only doesn't seem to pose any greater risk than we all have now. And plus, if it did fail, I would suspect most reefers who are going to drop $600+ on this know their tanks well enough to identify an errant reading (and double check with a back up device in that case).

Exactly! I've heard a lot of chatter about fail safes and killing tanks, however automation is going to do it the same every time and take the human error out of the test yielding the best result possible from the reagents being used. The only way anything dies is if someone makes a bad decision with the data, which can happen just as easily now. If Neptune doesn't write programming to provide notification to adjust dosing I'm sure it could be written. Having the programming in place to control your dosing pumps based on the result would be reckless out of the chute. Possibly down the road, but not right away.

 

[coralcruze]

What's the fail safe on a Hannah checker or any other method of testing? Even in your titration test the solution could be a bad batch. While I agree potentially allowing the Trident to control dosing is scary, the risk of the test failing while monitoring only doesn't seem to pose any greater risk than we all have now. And plus, if it did fail, I would suspect most reefers who are going to drop $600+ on this know their tanks well enough to identify an errant reading (and double check with a back up device in that case).

"What's the fail safe on a Hannah checker or any other method of testing?" THE AQUARIST... However, I agree with you to a POINT. Hanna checker and all other methods of testing have zero failsafe on their own, just like this device which will probably be 20X the price of a hanna checker. however the human brain. can question an errant reading BEFORE TAKING CORRECTIVE ACTION. i suspect that most people who will get this item will use it to automate a corrective action with the apex... IE: Trident tests low due to bad motor or pump or chem in the line or bad chem (pick a million things that can go wrong). say ALK tests with Trident at 4 dkh and apex is then programed by the user to dose sodium anahydride to bring the level back up to 10-11 dkh. Meanwhile the actual reading in the tank was 10 dkh and the apex trident just nuked the tank to 16 dkh.

I have three test kits for every param I test for. I know all three test kits and how far off each are typically. any single low or high test in one brand is always followed by another test with a different brand kit. corrections are only made when you can positively confirm and deduce the proper corrected amount. AND... corrections are made conservatively and retested again over time. The trident has one brand kit and one regent for each major element... you can duplicate tests all day long and you will get approx. the same bad result with one brand each and every time. Hmnn no thank you. I will let others kill their tanks. If ever perfected than mayyyyybe I will get one when the price drops years after its release. Something tells me this wont be better than sliced bread.

 

[markstubb]

Again, it's called the Trident, not the triton.

The Alkatronic has failsafes where if a test result differs by .2dKH from the previous test, it washes out and does the test again. So if you have a "bad pump, or chem, or whatever", it should get caught by this. I'm not entirely sure what the upper range of test delta and dosing factor the alkatronic uses, but I'm sure they thought about it. I would suggest, though, that if there was a pump failure in the Alkatronic, since it uses peristaltic pumps, you'd ether get a test result, or you won't. They also make you calibrate it once a month (takes 5 minutes), so if there is any pump drift, it's caught up once a month. Its proven to be pretty reliable over that month period for me, though. Consistent test results before and after calibration.

I use a CaRx with my Alkatronic, so there's no nuking the tank. The Alkatronic and Apex just control turning on and off my CO2. I get alerted when Alk falls out of the predetermined range I feel is safe for daily fluctuation.

The Alkatronic has testing accuracy to ±0.05dKH, same as the Trident.

The Hanna colorimeter tests ±5 ppm (mg/L) ±5% of reading (which is ±.28dKH)

I'm not aware of many published accuracy number for typical titration tests (red sea, salifert, nyos, etc), but from what I've read, it's around ±.15dKH, which is technically more accurate than the Hanna. Most of them don't publish accuracy parameters.

What does all of this mean? Well, it likely means that all of these testing methods are well within the range required to keep your Alk in the right spot. Where to differentiate is the two automated methods are much more highly accurate, which present the opportunity to do reliable correction to these numbers. IMHO, there are a reasonable number of failsafes in the units to prevent nuking your tank, and I've yet to hear a story about an Alkatronic nuking a tank. I'm not sure about the KH guardian - but it sure seems like I hear, and read about, a lot of folks complaining about them. The results for the Trident remain to be seen.. You can speculate all you want on folks killing their tanks, but I can guarantee the folks manually dosing their tanks, with few testing protocols in place, are much more likely to "kill their tanks" than someone using an Alktronic (or similar class testing device).

 

[coralcruze]

Again, it's called the Trident, not the triton.

You can speculate all you want on folks killing their tanks, but I can guarantee the folks manually dosing their tanks, with few testing protocols in place, are much more likely to "kill their tanks" than someone using an Alktronic (or similar class testing device).

But thats comparing apples and oranges. I am not talking about folks with few testing protocalls and manual dosing vs. an automated doser and tester. I am talking about people who use responsible methods to dose and test and use their brains.

If you think you cant kill a tank with a CaRx, you are mistaken my friend.

The aquatronic has def. sparked my interest.

 

[markstubb]

In the context of my post, I mean "manual" dosing whether it's via a preprogrammed doser or by dumping in a solution. Automated as in strictly as a result of the automated testing device. This, accompanied by folks that test once a month instead of using their brains and test daily. I should have been more clear.

Apples and oranges? I was simply expanding on the discussion you presented. You declared that automated testing and resultant dosing was the issue, then went on to discuss how you manually test with 3 different test kits and dose appropriately. I'm not saying one is better than another, it's just different strokes man.

The likely hood of me killing my tank with a CaRx is greatly diminished by the nature of how it works. It's not varying after initial dial in, or unless I change the factors (add or remove corals, huge waterchange, etc). It's just highly unlikely I'd kill a tank with a CaRx. Again, I should have been more clear. My bad.

A lot of my comments relate to having a tank of a decent size, too. Smaller tanks are obviously much more likely to blow up from param changes as they happen significantly faster.

 

[coralcruze]

I hear yah... and get yah... but I don't think daily testing is even needed IMHO.

yeah on CaRx... Unless you are using something other than C02 you can kill more than just your tank. Sure its unlikely but it can and has happened. Low PH in a tank is a bad thing and what happens in a full CaRX chamber vs. one that the ph dissolved over time? Even a second chamber for off gassing is no longer as effective at doing so since there is less media in there over time. So it will fluctuate. Mind telling me which CaRx regulator brand you use?

 

[markstubb]

Yeah, no way a personal attack on any of my comments Just having a good conversation.
My CaRx situation is a bit of a hack due to where I live. I used to have a Vertex RX-C 6D reactor (dual chamber, recirculating type) and the pump died. I can't get a replacement pump, and they glued in the pump connectors into a stock Sicce pump, but I can't find the union connectors they used to remake a pump, and Vertex's international support is no good. So I ended up picking up a Reef Octopus OCTO CR200 reactor. It's a recirculating type, but a single chamber. It uses a standard Varios 4 pump (and I have a few of these so I trust them, and they're silent). I then took the secondary chamber from my Vertex and use that as well. I feed it with a Kamoer FX-STP pump. CO2 is controlled by a Carbon Doser. Carbon Doser power is controlled by the Apex. pH from the reactor is in the apex, Alk is in the apex. I have general gates in the apex programming to control things, but I have dialed it all in over many months now, so the Carbon Doser/CO2 never turns on and off, and pH in the CaRx is within .03 pH all day long. My dKH varies about .1 throughout the day.

 

[coralcruze]

I agree Vertex has horrid customer service.

Interestingly I used to backflow my CaRx the same way you do and is the best way to feed a CaRx. I also have one of the first generations of Kamoer stepper pump. You must be doing something right if the pH never fluctuates more than .03. At best mine would fluctuate a bit but would stay in a tight range.

could i ask about the Alkatronic? is salifert the only regent it accepts?

 

[markstubb]

The interesting thing about Vertex is I think they got a new distributor (maybe owner? I don't understand what all happened with that company) in the USA and they seem to have their stuff together. The international support is still lacking. Adam, the USA guy, was quite quick to reply to me, so I honestly will give him high marks. The main place in Germany never responded to any sort of attempt to contact them, whether it be via phone or email. Useless. That whole company/website is all a bit of mystery to me.

Anyway, the Alkatronic uses some sort of reagent, but they don't say what it is, or what's in it. You can buy it premixed or in concentrate, and depending on how often you test, it can last you a very long time. One bottle of it (I think it's around $100 US for a concentrated 4L bottle) will likely last me about 1.25 years. This was with me originally doing tests about every 3 hours, which I pushed back to 6 hours once I learned my tank. I mix up about 2.5L of solution at a time (4 parts RO to 1 part concentrate) using a graduated flask. Pretty easy to do and I do it every other month or so now. I'm really happy with the Alkatronic. Their support is great too.

That being said, I would absolutely love to mess around with a Trident too. I'm very heavily invested in Apex gear - I think I have about every piece of control equipment they make at this point (aside from pumps and wavemakers), but I'm pretty sure that even if I got my hands on a Trident, getting reagents every 2 months would likely be cost prohibitive as they generally concentrate on the market that likely makes them the most $$ - the US.

That being said, I have found that as long as I've kept my Alk in check, calcium and mag have been absolutely perfect this whole time too. I run mag chips in my secondary chamber in the CaRx, so I think it produces enough for take-up for the tank.

 

[Dr. Reef]

Alkalinity reagents are sensitive to air, pH changes and dry out over time. So for me having smaller 1-2 month bottles premixed by manufacturers is a better option.
It takes the human error out.
It also reduces the sensitivity part as it's less time exposed and hardly ever opened after Install.
These variables cause reagent to degrade and cause incorrect results in testing.
My 2 cents.

 

[markstubb]

They do sell premixed 1L bottles which would last a month I suppose, so that would get the job done. I certainly don't pretend to understand the chemistry behind it, but so far it's worked out AOK for me when comparing to other test kits every now and then.

 

[Dr. Reef]

I like the alktronic. It is probably the only device in the market that is well built and looks like well put together.

 

[Chris155hp]

Trident talk starts at about 43 min

 

[Kalibur2]

I had to make the decision with Black Friday and jumped to Alkatronic. Tired of going away for 2 weeks with no one being able to care of tank and coming back sometimes to low alk and some upset corals. Now I can have peace of mind. Waited as much as I could

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

i have only had iy for a month but my alkatronic has been awesome. every time i look at it i am glad i just said forget about the apex hype.

and now for thanksgiving i can unsub from this thread.

 

[mitch91175]

i have only had iy for a month but my alkatronic has been awesome. every time i look at it i am glad i just said forget about the apex hype.

and now for thanksgiving i can unsub from this thread.

Yeah it is a nice piece of gear. Definitely give you a better piece of mind when away.

 

[Chris155hp]

Yeah it is a nice piece of gear. Definitely give you a better piece of mind when away.

I agree the alkatronic is a very nice piece of equipment (probably the nicest alk monitor on the market imo) with many safe guards in place. And in all honestly I would have already bought it if I didn’t think the trident was close enough around the corner in the next few months. That being said I don’t see why the trident can’t have the same safe guards as the alkatronic