Triton Testing Poll: Tin vs PVC

Discussion in 'Reef Aquarium Discussion' started by Randy Holmes-Farley, Nov 1, 2014.

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  1. I have no elevated tin and have some rigid PVC pipes that are less than 3 years old

    18 vote(s)
    30.5%
  2. I have no elevated tin and have some rigid PVC pipes, but all are more than than 3 years old

    3 vote(s)
    5.1%
  3. I have ELEVATED tin and have some rigid PVC pipes that are less than 3 years old

    25 vote(s)
    42.4%
  4. I have ELEVATED tin and have some rigid PVC pipes that are more than 3 years old

    8 vote(s)
    13.6%
  5. I have ELEVATED tin and have no rigid PVC pipes

    3 vote(s)
    5.1%
  6. I have no elevated tin and have no rigid PVC pipes

    2 vote(s)
    3.4%
  1. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    A number of people have recently been getting elevated results for Tin (Sn) in their Triton testing.

    One hypothesis that was suggested is that tin in rigid PVC is leaking into the systems.

    So I set up this poll to see if there is a correlation.

    So please vote if you have information that may allow us to possibly identify a source of the excessive tin.

    TIA
     
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  2. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    FWIW, the idea on the pipe age is that old pipes may have leached all the tin they are going to. It is just a hypothesis. :)
     
  3. TheReefKeeper

    TheReefKeeper Active Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019

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    I'll have my results back soon

    I used that red pvc so I guess we will see if I too have a high Sn reading just my couplings are white pvc. I'm sure their is a food grade tube I think it's the clear stuff

    I'll contact the mfg and see if the red stuff has tin as a binder can't remeber where it came from been a while
     
  4. gregoryleonard

    gregoryleonard Well-Known Member

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    I have rigid PVC pipes less than 3 years old and had elevated Sn (tin) of 10.07 ug/l on a target of 0.10 ug/l.
    Is your hypothesis that rigid PVC pipes over 3 years old have leached all the Sn from them and are less likely to cause the elevated Sn readings?
     
  5. ewelch

    ewelch Active Member

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    Great hypothesis ! Interested in how this turns out .

    I have high levels of Tin . My system was setup in the last month with all ridgid plumbing .
     
  6. TheReefKeeper

    TheReefKeeper Active Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019

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  7. gregoryleonard

    gregoryleonard Well-Known Member

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    so if my home plumbing (which is PVC and CPVC) but is 15+ years old, could Sn be leaching into the Ro/Di water being made for everything I use in the aquarium reef? Or does the RO/DI 6 stage filter I use likely remove any Sn in the water. Other than water changes, what can be used to get the Sn out of the reef (if anything)? Does Macro Algae absorb Sn? I have read that Macro Algae can absorb some heavy metals??
    I also would like to know if anyone knows what symptoms elevated Sn produces in SPS/LPS/softies? This has raised more questions for me now that I know what my levels are due to the Triton test.
     
  8. Grant

    Grant Member

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    My Sn is 31.14 ug/l and I use rigid PVC.
     
  9. ChristopherKriens

    ChristopherKriens Unknown Member R2R Supporter Photo of the Month Award Build Thread Contributor

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    My tin levels were normal and I run PVC for both return and drain.
     
  10. Grant

    Grant Member

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    My screws, nuts and cabinet hinges are pretty rusted up. Although they don't hang over the sump tank or ATO, maybe they could also be a contributing factor to Sn levels. Going to replace parts and cover to prevent it from rusting in future.
     
  11. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    FWIW, I just voted in my poll:

    I have no elevated tin and have some rigid PVC pipes, but all are more than than 3 years old
     
  12. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    That is the hypothesis, yes.

    It is known that tin is in some PVC, but I would also expect it is very hard for it to come out since molecules moving through PVC is difficult.

    FWIW, Ehsan of Triton says he thinks it is mostly from hose clamps and similar metal parts, which makes sense.
     
  13. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    Most PVC is drain pipes, not potable water, but in any case, if it is upstream of the RO/DI, it shouldn't be a concern as it should be removed. :)

    I do not know what effect tin toxicity shows up as, but it is a fairly toxic ion in some forms.

    Unfortunately, the Triton test doesn't tell us anything about what form it is in (bound to organics, etc.).

    Organotin compounds (such as tributyltin), however are used to prevent biofouling of boat bottoms, so that's a reason to think about tin and marine inverts.
     
  14. TheReefKeeper

    TheReefKeeper Active Member R2R Supporter Partner Member 2019

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    Just posted my results Randy no Tin I was expecting a lil honestly after seeing so many with SI leaves high.
     
  15. BNUTTHEHUT

    BNUTTHEHUT Active Member

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    I use hose clamps in my tank and my tin was 0. I would be curious to see what part of the country, age of the house, location of water supply(ie river, lake, well, dam ext) and RODI unit the people are using. Towns with a water supply that was installed pre 1942ish could have tin in the water. Or if the tank is made of float glass.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2014
  16. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    My house was built in 1909, I get water from a surface reservoir through many miles of old pipes, and I didn't have any detectable tin. :)

    I have heard some people talk about the glass issue, but I haven't followed up on it. I don't know anything about what kind of glass was used for my tank.
     
  17. gregoryleonard

    gregoryleonard Well-Known Member

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    Randy,
    Will any of these products remove Tin to your knowledge?
    Macro algae? Will it consume Heavy metals (Sn)? I have read it will.
    Pure pads
    Marine bio pads
    Kardon Metal rid
    Thanks
     
  18. BNUTTHEHUT

    BNUTTHEHUT Active Member

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    Interesting... I thought for sure old pipes. If Sn was the only out of range heavy metal, I wonder if the testing process produced the Sn?:spy::spy::spy:
     
  19. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    To be honest, I don't know what will remove tin, and am not even sure what form the tin is in to figure it out.

    Organisms such as Caulerpa and Xenia will take up tin, as in this study:

    Down the Drain, Exports from Reef Aquaria by Ronald L. Shimek, Ph.D. - Reefkeeping.com

    Let's calculate how much:

    Let's say you have 100 gallons (378 liters) of water volume and 10 ug/L of tin. That's 3.8 mg of tin.

    Caulerpa contains about 0.7 mg/kg of tin.

    So to remove half of that tin would require 2.7 kilograms (wet weight) of caulerpa.

    That's a lot of macroalgae, but it may be useful if you export a lot.
     
  20. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Article Contributor Expert Contributor

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    Possible, but unlikely, IMO. Only some of the Triton samples show any tin, and they've had years to work out such kinks. :)
     
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