tropic marin np bacto balance

[Kfactor]

Hi all I wanted to try tropic marin np bacto balance in my tank . My no3 right now I have got it down from 19 to 12 ppm but my po4 I have been have to dose to get a ready it’s very low . Does tropic marin np bacto balance add n and p ? I would like to get my n03 around 5 to 10 then start dosing if possible. If I have close to 0 for p04 with this give me enough not having to dose po4 ?

 

[exnisstech]

IME it does not add but reduces NO3 and PO4 as it is a form of carbon dosing. The carbon dosing part is info I gathered reading. I do dose BB on one tank that I started Feb 2023 and have been very happy with the results. I'm loosely following the method sunnyx discussed in the thread below which includes dosing bacteria. There is a lot of information here on R2R about BB and other methods that you can read about

Bacterial Driven System: A Recipe for Success.

EDIT 10/20/2023 Well, the system has preformed beyond expectations and grown corals quicker than what I would have imagined. You can read about the "Bacteria-Powered Reef" in the latest issue of Reef Hobbyist Magazine. Original article...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[jda]

Vinegar or Vodka might be better. First, you know what it is and what to expect. Second, they are well known for lowering no3 without lowering po4 very much.

I might not be the best person to ask since I do not use trust-me black-box type of products anymore. In this case where Vodka or Vinegar is so easy, it is especially true.

 

[Pod_01]

I have used TM carbon dosing products and here is the general recommendation:

You pick the product based on your PO4 level.
Yes the NP stands for N and P.
I never used carbon dosing to control nutrients but to feed the bacteria that hopefully is absorbed etc… by the corals. So my dose is like 0.4ml per 50gal or so.

Good luck,

 

[rtparty]

Bacto Balance seems to reduce both IME but I don’t test N and P often enough to truly know. Just going by what the corals and tank tell me.

I deal with way less cyano using Bacto Balance compared to vodka. Cyano was almost always an issue with vodka. Like the line was razor thin at all times.

 

[Big E]

I used Bacto balance for over a year and my take----

A bottle lasts a long time as you have to dose very little. So it's economical.

At the 6 month mark I experienced a rise of P04 that kept rising while N03 stayed stable. When I got above .30 I used GFO to knock it back down. I was always chasing down the P04.

My goal when I started was to find a replacement product that I didn't have to use GFO. It didn't keep a balance as they claim.

I never used the Elimi-NP and had no intention to alternate and chase P04 all the time.

I didn't dose any bacteria as TM claims you don't need to.
---------------------------------

On Sunny he's doing a Zeo/ bacto balance combo.........mostly Zeo products so I really don't consider the Bacto balance integral. You could use vinegar in it's place and probably accomplish the same thing with his combo.

 

[Kfactor]

I have used TM carbon dosing products and here is the general recommendation:

You pick the product based on your PO4 level.
Yes the NP stands for N and P.
I never used carbon dosing to control nutrients but to feed the bacteria that hopefully is absorbed etc… by the corals. So my dose is like 0.4ml per 50gal or so.

Good luck,

thanks for the reply i dont really want to lower them just want to keep them stable . i always have low po4 and was just wondering if it would add po4 as well and not n03 but keep it stable were i have it . i have started dosing zeobak and zeofood but i dose it very very low amounts .

 

[jda]

Is there any reason why your tank would be phosphorous limited? Corals, algae and everything in your tank (that I can think of) can get phosphorous from many more sources than just po4. Some will not use po4 first, so even if you raise po4 and already have a surplus, then you won't likely get any more phosphorous to them.

 

[MartinM]

I’m a big fan of BB. Helps me reduce phosphates without dropping nitrates as much (I also dose no3). It’s super concentrated so be careful. Each system is different but I only need 1ml per day in my 200L system otherwise my nutrients drop to undetectable levels. I dose 10mL in a 1000L system that had even higher PO4. I find I had to dose higher, got the PO4 down, then lowered the BB to a ‘maintenance’ dose.

Some people export nutrients but I pretty much only import. I feed heavy and don’t use a skimmer. I have to dose NO3, and BB keeps the phosphates maintained at proper levels. I suppose since both my systems have DSB and lots of big clams that’s why I have to be heavy in.

 

[Kfactor]

Is there any reason why your tank would be phosphorous limited? Corals, algae and everything in your tank (that I can think of) can get phosphorous from many more sources than just po4. Some will not use po4 first, so even if you raise po4 and already have a surplus, then you won't likely get any more phosphorous to them.

i got small amounts of gha but nothing that would make it drop my p04 i think . i have been dosing po4 not to get it higher but just to keep it in the system . when i try to bring it up stuff starts to not look good

 

[Pod_01]

Corals, algae and everything in your tank (that I can think of) can get phosphorous from many more sources than just po4.

Some of the TM carbon dosing products contain other P/PO4 sources:

Plus-NP contains polyphosphates because they don't form insoluble compounds as fast and easily as orthophosphate.

As per Hans Werner the creator of the carbon dosing line offered by TM.

I am not sure what type of P/PO4 is inside of TM NP-BB.

I do believe the best type of P or PO4 for corals is made by the fish but if the system doesn’t have enough fish/critters other sources might be required.

Algae on the other hand gets most of the PO4 from the rock. I am basing this on my experience, few times I got PO4 to zero and algae just kept on growing. Corals on the other hand did not grow so well.

 

[Hans-Werner]

I am not sure what type of P/PO4 is inside of TM NP-BB

We use polyphosphates which I have tested long-term earlier. It is bioavailable for corals and I think it does not adsorb to calcareous materials as readily as orthophosphate does.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think it does not adsorb to calcareous materials as readily as orthophosphate does.

Is there any published experimental evidence of that?

Both polyphosphate and orthophosphate are known to bind well to calcium carbonate surfaces, and are both used in scale control for that reason

Comparing Polyphosphate and Orthophosphate Treatments of Solution-Precipitated Aragonite Powders

The aqueous and thermal stabilities of aragonite (CaCO3) powders against phase conversion are important for industrial applications that rely on calcium carbonate. We describe the synthesis and characterization of solution-precipitated aragonite powders before and after exposure to different...

www.mdpi.com

 

[jda]

Are we sure that the poly does not break down into ortho in the bottle? I tested a few different kinds of polyphosphates and they all turned into ortho in about three days in water.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Are we sure that the poly does not break down into ortho in the bottle? I tested a few different kinds of polyphosphates and they all turned into ortho in about three days in water.

Polyphosphates are not a single entity, but the ones used in water treatments are expected to degrade over time.

Polyphosphates Stability?

Hydrolysis: All condensed phosphates are subject to decomposition when they are dissolved in water. The reaction is called hydrolysis because the water is an active participant in the reaction. During the reaction, bonds in both the phosphate and water are broken. The resulting hydrogen atom...

www.ameriwestwater.com

 

[jda]

Would there be a concentration where this reaction would be delayed in a bottle? I only tested STPP and TPP, so I know that this is a small sample, but the conversion to ortho was almost like clockwork. I also searched for all kinds of academic work on how long poly lasts from fish waste to no avail, only that it does break down eventually.

I guess that it would be easy to test. Put a drop or two into some saltwater and measure po4 for a few days. If it never rises, then it all turned into ortho in the bottle. ...like @taricha has nothing else to do...

Lastly, does poly and meta mean the same thing? Some academia also say complex. There are even some other terms used when having to translate like multi and compounded. I always assumed that these were all saying the same thing, but I am probably wrong. If so, then I would like to study the difference.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The hydrolysis reaction to break a phosphate off polyphosphate is very pH dependent.

 

[Bramzor]

Hi all I wanted to try tropic marin np bacto balance in my tank . My no3 right now I have got it down from 19 to 12 ppm but my po4 I have been have to dose to get a ready it’s very low . Does tropic marin np bacto balance add n and p ? I would like to get my n03 around 5 to 10 then start dosing if possible. If I have close to 0 for p04 with this give me enough not having to dose po4 ?

Sounds like you need Plus-NP instead to increase it over time ( you won’t be able to measure PO4 using a normal test kit though since it will be there in a different form). I see it as a positive thing though because it helps to stop chasing numbers. After a few weeks/months PO4 might be measurable and a bit high, you might have to switch to bacto balance which is the same but has lower amount of N and P.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Is there any published experimental evidence of that?

Both polyphosphate and orthophosphate are known to bind well to calcium carbonate surfaces, and are both used in scale control for that reason

Here, lines 44 - 50.

In Germany and stated in German Wikipedia polyphosphates were used as water softeners because in this regard they are superior to othophosphates. The chelating effects are also used in foods and food processing. This means polyphosphates do not as readily form precipitates with calcium or magnesium as orthophosphates.

Well, if polyphosphates or some of them break down in solution to orthophosphate the products will be a little bit more "conventional" but I think we don't claim anything wrong. I think we have included some other ideas that make the products still a bit special and different from other products. That is all we want.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Here, lines 44 - 50.

In Germany and stated in German Wikipedia polyphosphates were used as water softeners because in this regard they are superior to othophosphates. The chelating effects are also used in foods and food processing. This means polyphosphates do not as readily form precipitates with calcium or magnesium as orthophosphates.

Well, if polyphosphates or some of them break down in solution to orthophosphate the products will be a little bit more "conventional" but I think we don't claim anything wrong. I think we have included some other ideas that make the products still a bit special and different from other products. That is all we want.

I have a different interpretation that I believe explains that observation, as opposed to stronger binding to calcium carbonate surfaces by orthophosphate.

The article you post is, I believe, talking about precipitation of calcium phosphate. It is true that calcium phosphate likely forms better crystals for ongoing precipitation of calcium and orthophosphate from calcium and orthophosphate or polyphosphate in the water.

Polyphosphate will chelate calcium and keep it dissolved, while orthophosphate will not. It is also harder to orient every polyphosphate exactly into the right position to form the most highly stable crystals for ongoing precipitation. It's a basic idea that it is hard to form crystals of larger, more floppy molecules, especially if the molecules precipitating potentially come in a variety of actual chain lengths, preventing good crystal formation.

But that is not the scenario that I am concerned about, which is the binding of phosphate or polyphosphate to calcium carbonate surfaces. The potential for crystal formation says nothing about how well these molecules absorb onto existing calcium carbonate surfaces, and, IMO, polyphosphate is likely to bind more strongly, not less so, due to a known effect called polyvalency where the polyphosphate has multiple points of contact with the mineral surface, while orthophosphate does not, enhancing the binding of the polyphosphate.

Self-Organized Nanoparticles of Random and Block Copolymers of Sodium 2-(Acrylamido)-2-methyl-1-propanesulfonate and Sodium 11-(Acrylamido)undecanoate as Safe and Effective Zika Virus Inhibitors

A series of anionic homopolymers, poly(sodium 2-(acrylamido)-2-methyl-1-propanesulfonate) (PAMPS) and amphiphilic copolymers of AMPS and sodium 11-(acrylamido)undecanoate (AaU), both block (PAMPS75-b-PAaUn), and random (P(AMPSm-co-AaUn)), were synthesized and their antiviral activity against...

www.mdpi.com

"Moreover, polymers exhibit a phenomenon called “polyvalency” when multiple repeating units of the polymer can bind to multiple complementary cell receptors or viral proteins simultaneously. As multiple individual ligand–receptor interactions act synergistically, polyvalent interactions are typically much stronger than monovalent binding"