True Hawaiian Yellow tangs for sale !!

[klc]

Pricing is whatever the market will allow… when people stop buying, prices will go down.
Plenty of people paid ridiculous money for wild caught YTs… when Hawaii opens up, I really don’t expect prices to return to pre-ban prices.

Of course not, along with everything else that's been inflated. I don't think a few hundred bucks is outrageous for a fish, considering what it takes to produce it, house it, feed it, market it etc. Prices of products, whether it's livestock or dry goods, is determined by what a consumer is willing to pay. As has been said when consumers stop buying, the prices may eventually come down.

I don't think anyone here was really complaining about the price, it was the fact that they were advertised as something they were not. And even that is a grey area considering they are bred in Hawaii. Has anyone contacted the vendor and asked then to update their description? Maybe Biota can demand an accurate description of their captive bred fish for the retailers who sell them, as a condition of sale.

 

[areefer01]

It's advertising like the one in this thread that is geared towards those people.

Marketing, hobbies, onus is on the hobbyist to navigate.

To read that $165 is a reasonable price for a yellow tang should tell you all who's really in control of our hobby.

What is reasonable? Do you have any factual information on the difficulties they face bringing new fish to market? Yellow Tang? Potters Angle? Any other captive bred or raised fish? I don't have such information.

Two problems I see here. The first is that hobbyist are stuck in the past and want prices of animals close to what it was sold for 20 years ago. The second is that it seems we can't sit down at a table and have a conversation about it without emotion getting the best of us.

Edit: when I talk about sitting at a table it is a figure of speech, not you per say. Difference of opinion is perfectly fine if that makes sense. However, the conversation still needs to happen among all of us otherwise choices we may not like will be made for us.

 

[DirectCherry]

It honestly doesn't matter to me...I just think it's rather obvious that when one company is producing the vast majority of them for the market, they can charge excessive prices and claim whatever they want as justification. If only one company made ice cream for example, why wouldn't the price of ice cream rise dramatically? Its not difficult to make.... who's to tell them they can't double the price and claim their ice cream is "all natural" and cost of manufacturing increased?

That's basic capitalism, which he have to thank for the wide variety of fish and corals that are available to us in the hobby.

 

[Gundy]

To me that sounds like a bunch of selective facts to make a hobbyist have sympathy for retailers.

It doesn't account for the fact that prices are getting higher without any evidence.

In reality it boils down to what side of the fence you're on. If you're a hobbyist you'd be wise to analyze increasing cost and ask why is it well above inflation.

If you're a retailer, you're liking this trend because a rising tide lifts all boats.

The hobbyist needs to wake up and stop accepting what retailers are feeding you as fact.

The problem is (and the industry knows this) that there's always that naive new customer that doesn't know any better, or the loads of novice hobbyist that believe some influencer actually paid for what ever they're shilling and doesn't bat an eye when they shell out the money.

It's advertising like the one in this thread that is geared towards those people.

To read that $165 is a reasonable price for a yellow tang should tell you all who's really in control of our hobby.

A lot of people are partaking in the "member berries" but that gets lost on blind eyes because most readers don't make the connection, "oh OK, so fish were cheaper back then, big whoop!"

The take away should be that there shouldn't be a 1000% increase in such a short amount of time. Hobbyist need to be educated in such a fashion that they don't come in thinking fish and corals are supposed to be this expensive.

I totally agree but with the cost of shipping, labor and demand, costs are going to rise. Also, very few in the hobby will boycott and not by fish, which would indeed drop prices down if it was widespread.

 

[RedoubtReef]

To me that sounds like a bunch of selective facts to make a hobbyist have sympathy for retailers.

It doesn't account for the fact that prices are getting higher without any evidence.

In reality it boils down to what side of the fence you're on. If you're a hobbyist you'd be wise to analyze increasing cost and ask why is it well above inflation.

If you're a retailer, you're liking this trend because a rising tide lifts all boats.

The hobbyist needs to wake up and stop accepting what retailers are feeding you as fact.

The problem is (and the industry knows this) that there's always that naive new customer that doesn't know any better, or the loads of novice hobbyist that believe some influencer actually paid for what ever they're shilling and doesn't bat an eye when they shell out the money.

It's advertising like the one in this thread that is geared towards those people.

To read that $165 is a reasonable price for a yellow tang should tell you all who's really in control of our hobby.

A lot of people are partaking in the "member berries" but that gets lost on blind eyes because most readers don't make the connection, "oh OK, so fish were cheaper back then, big whoop!"

The take away should be that there shouldn't be a 1000% increase in such a short amount of time. Hobbyist need to be educated in such a fashion that they don't come in thinking fish and corals are supposed to be this expensive.

 

[Biota_Marine]

It honestly doesn't matter to me...I just think it's rather obvious that when one company is producing the vast majority of them for the market, they can charge excessive prices and claim whatever they want as justification. If only one company made ice cream for example, why wouldn't the price of ice cream rise dramatically? Its not difficult to make.... who's to tell them they can't double the price and claim their ice cream is "all natural" and cost of manufacturing increased?

Not to argue the point here but it's been said a few different times. It's incredibly expensive to breed tang of any species which is why we don't see more companies doing it. As mentioned above the research is public information because of our work with OI and has been for almost a decade now. We have been doing it successfully for a few years but compared to demersal spawning species we are in the infancy of that research. We have made changes that has increased production for this species since we started.

This isn't to be compared to all natural or organic or similar buzzwords because we are creating a different product. When you purchase a captive-bred fish it has been in the hands of an expert scientist it's entire life.

To get Yellow tang to the size we sell them its 4 months of dedication, expensive live feeds, rent, electricity, staffing, ect. While when yellow tang were previously collected they would catch our years production in a few days of diving. I always wonder why many hobbyists take issue with the pricing on Yellow Tang while there's no issue paying higher pricing for designer clownfish when almost anyone in the world can breed them or designer frags that anyone can culture.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Not to argue the point here but it's been said a few different times. It's incredibly expensive to breed tang of any species which is why we don't see more companies doing it. As mentioned above the research is public information because of our work with OI and has been for almost a decade now. We have been doing it successfully for a few years but compared to demersal spawning species we are in the infancy of that research. We have made changes that has increased production for this species since we started.

This isn't to be compared to all natural or organic or similar buzzwords because we are creating a different product. When you purchase a captive-bred fish it has been in the hands of an expert scientist it's entire life. It's feeding on prepared diets and doesn't impact wild populations. That costs money when compared to the hot potato industry of wild collection.

To get Yellow tang to the size we sell them its 4 months of dedication, expensive live feeds, rent, electricity, staffing, ect. While when yellow tang were previously collected they would catch our years production in a few days of diving. I always wonder why many hobbyists take issue with the pricing on Yellow Tang while there's no issue paying higher pricing for designer clownfish when almost anyone in the world can breed them or designer frags that anyone can culture.

I truly have nothing against Biota and yellow tangs just have never been a favorite of mine so regardless of price, I probably wouldnt opt for a yellow Tang when there are so many incredible species out there. I don't know what you're margins are and whether they're small or huge, it's fine by me. There wouldn't be anything wrong at all if you guys were making good money in the process.
I think you felt I have I'll feelings towards Biota for their pricing but that's not why I was participating in this thread at all. Whenever a topic such as this surfaces (which is frequently), everyone jumps to take a side with very few actually having much evidence for their belief so I play devil's advocate in an attempt to make them realize they probably don't know much about what they're presenting as fact in the first place.

The only thing I disagree with is that it appears you look down on wild collection of yellow tangs. (I gather this from you mentioning the impact on wild populations which extensive professional research doesn't seem to support. Is the "hot potato" industry of wild collection really so bad if it hasn't been determined to be detrimental after countless studies? It helps those who do want a yellow Tang afford one.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Not to argue the point here but it's been said a few different times. It's incredibly expensive to breed tang of any species which is why we don't see more companies doing it. As mentioned above the research is public information because of our work with OI and has been for almost a decade now. We have been doing it successfully for a few years but compared to demersal spawning species we are in the infancy of that research. We have made changes that has increased production for this species since we started.

This isn't to be compared to all natural or organic or similar buzzwords because we are creating a different product. When you purchase a captive-bred fish it has been in the hands of an expert scientist it's entire life. It's feeding on prepared diets and doesn't impact wild populations. That costs money when compared to the hot potato industry of wild collection.

To get Yellow tang to the size we sell them its 4 months of dedication, expensive live feeds, rent, electricity, staffing, ect. While when yellow tang were previously collected they would catch our years production in a few days of diving. I always wonder why many hobbyists take issue with the pricing on Yellow Tang while there's no issue paying higher pricing for designer clownfish when almost anyone in the world can breed them or designer frags that anyone can culture.

I used to build aquariums, filters, light systems, stands, skimmers, and test marked the first product to re attach corals to rocks. No matter the item no one understands the cost like the person making the product or breeding the livestock. Overhead varies due to scales of economy thus the term mass merchandisers. Retail buyers don't have a clue about things like landed costs but they sure will jump on you about your prices. Let's face it the aquarium industry is a world away from McDonald's but some consumers think they are the same thing!

I also believe in managed collection practices!

 

[albano]

I always wonder why many hobbyists take issue with the pricing on Yellow Tang while there's no issue paying higher pricing for designer clownfish when almost anyone in the world can breed them or designer frags that anyone can culture.

You’re absolutely right about the clowns and coral frags! But can we talk about the golden Cuban basslet?

 

[Biota_Marine]

I truly have nothing against Biota and yellow tangs just have never been a favorite of mine so regardless of price, I probably wouldnt opt for a yellow Tang when there are so many incredible species out there. I don't know what you're margins are and whether they're small or huge, it's fine by me. There wouldn't be anything wrong at all if you guys were making good money in the process.
I think you felt I have I'll feelings towards Biota for their pricing but that's not why I was participating in this thread at all. Whenever a topic such as this surfaces (which is frequently), everyone jumps to take a side with very few actually having much evidence for their belief so I play devil's advocate in an attempt to make them realize they probably don't know much about what they're presenting as fact in the first place.

The only thing I disagree with is that it appears you look down on wild collection of yellow tangs. (I gather this from you mentioning the impact on wild populations which extensive professional research doesn't seem to support. Is the "hot potato" industry of wild collection really so bad if it hasn't been determined to be detrimental after countless studies? It helps those who do want a yellow Tang afford one.

I personally support sustainble wild collection of many species and its benefits to local communities. That's why our breeding facilities are in Palau and Hawaii, to stimilate local economies of areas where these fish are from. The decision is with Hawaii to manage their own collections and they get to decide how their natural resources are utilized. That's not a matter of if they are or would be collected sustainably.

Although some of the studies (specifically with Hawaii) showed sustainable collection practices wouldn't have much local population impact, the low survival rate for the aquarium trade is referenced in many bans and oppositions is not a good look for our industry. The focus should be on hobbyists gaining a window to the ocean and appreciating what nature has to offer and when we're complicit in poor husbandry practices in the name of cheap fish it's not beneficial in the grand scheme of things.

I understand playing Devil's advocate but I'm happy to be here as a source of information for what my experiences have been so people can stop doing that. We started breeding yellow tang prior to the closure and our decision to breed yellow tang was because we saw one of the most popular aquarium fish without an available captive-bred alternative. Often in posts regarding this species we're seen as the villian for not following pricing from the 80s and 90s when really we just breed fish and charge what is costs to keep us doing that and investing in new species research. Our only pricing change with the Yellow Tang came when we doubled our space and team there and has resulted in things like Potter's Angelfish, cleaner wrasse, and hopefully some additional new species in the future.

 

[Biota_Marine]

You’re absolutely right about the clowns and coral frags! But can we talk about the golden Cuban basslet?

Yeah the Cuban Basslet was a species that is still currently unavailable from the wild in the US and previously before we took over the project was going at $3000+ if someone was able to get them to the US. After years of breeding them the price we offer is now a fraction of that but the facility we breed them at is very limited on space because we have them doing a ton of research on new species. So we breed only a small number every month which keeps that pricing steady.

If we were to dedicate the whole facility to just that species I don't doubt the price would go down and honestly I'm suprised hobbyists haven't attempted it themselves since it's very similar to royal gramma breeding.

 

[albano]

Yeah the Cuban Basslet.., After years of breeding them the price we offer is now a fraction of that but the facility we breed them at is very limited on space because we have them doing a ton of research on new species. So we breed only a small number every month which keeps that pricing steady.

So, I guess that I just need ‘to bite the bullet’ and order it!

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Although some of the studies (specifically with Hawaii) showed sustainable collection practices wouldn't have much local population impact, the low survival rate for the aquarium trade is referenced in many bans and oppositions is not a good look for our industry.

This is a good point, wild yellow tangs aren't on the verge of extinction in Hawaii. I get that pointing to survival rate can elude to poor practices, but that's not what people are made to conclude. We're supposed to believe that even with poor survival and the demand from the hobby that wild collection isn't sustainable. It's funny to the point that it's not that our hobby gets lumped into the overfishing argument when, in fact, the 2 are completely separate.

I really don't have any problem with biota tying to make their business model work. The Hawaii ban certainly made it profitable. What I have a problem with is the complacency of hobbyist as a whole and our comprehension of what's really at play here, because that narrative leans heavily toward marketing and that's in direct contrast to a hobbyists point of view... or at least it should be.

 

[Lebowski_]

If Hawaiians don't want to export their tangs, I really don't get why we should feel entitled to them. Support aquaculture.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

If Hawaiians don't want to export their tangs, I really don't get why we should feel entitled to them. Support aquaculture.

I don't think that's debated. From a hobbyists perspective, the question is, "to what costs?"

Not just monitory cost? But the precedent it sets. What else are we giving up to support such a narrative?

 

[exnisstech]

Auto manufacturers have union overhead to deal with.

This is not even close to being correct. Maybe when the big three were the only ones here in the US but today less than 16% are union shops. Nissan can be added to the list below. Just saying

 

[Lebowski_]

I don't think that's debated. From a hobbyists perspective, the question is, "to what costs?"

Not just monitory cost? But the precedent it sets. What else are we giving up to support such a narrative?

I am not sure. I struggle with this internally sometimes.

This is not even close to being correct. Maybe when the big three were the only ones here in the US but today less than 16% are union shops. Nissan can be added to the list below. Just saying

That's a shame I guess part of being in the global market is that you have to sink to the lowest wage and labour standards to stay competitive. Another win for the wealthy classes.

 

[exnisstech]

That's a shame I guess part of being in the global market is that you have to sink to the lowest wage and labour standards to stay competitive. Another win for the wealthy classes.

Or pay a fair wage with decent benifits and cut the union excecs out of their wages. I've worked in union shops and nonunion so I do have experience with both but this is probably not the place for that discussion.
I just wanted to correct a statement that was made that was incorrect. Too much of that going on these days.

 

[areefer01]

This is not even close to being correct. Maybe when the big three were the only ones here in the US but today less than 16% are union shops. Nissan can be added to the list below. Just saying

Has the work force shrunk? I'm not saying you are wrong but quick search shows UAW has a work force of 150,000.

 

[frizzayyyyreef]

They look nice! Do you guys think they may be from areas aside from Hawaii?

This doesn’t look like a true yellow tang imo….the captive bred ones are a weird yellow and thus looks just like that …nobody can change my mind these don’t come close I’ve had real yellows my whole life and I’m praying one day I can find a real one for sale ….sadly I moved gave my last one away to a friend thinking I’d just buy another lol man was I wrong