Two heaters with Profilux 4

d2mini

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What is the best way to set up TWO heaters?
I have a pair in my sump, each on their own socket.
Want to make sure I'm running them as efficiently as possible.
 

Jerel

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I have my two heaters setup in a way where one heater turns on by the assigned temp from the temp sensor and the second heater comes on by programming a virtual sensor. Say - My main heater comes on at 78.7 and my secondary heater kicks on at 78.0.. If for some reason my main heater is not putting out.
 

BCSreef

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I have my two heaters setup in a way where one heater turns on by the assigned temp from the temp sensor and the second heater comes on by programming a virtual sensor. Say - My main heater comes on at 78.7 and my secondary heater kicks on at 78.0.. If for some reason my main heater is not putting out.

I do the same.

Although, I may look into the way Lasse did his heater in the "Profilux Programmable Logic Usage & Examples" thread.

Bob
 

BCSreef

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I have my two heaters setup in a way where one heater turns on by the assigned temp from the temp sensor and the second heater comes on by programming a virtual sensor. Say - My main heater comes on at 78.7 and my secondary heater kicks on at 78.0.. If for some reason my main heater is not putting out.

I should add that my heaters have internal thermostats that I set for 80.5. Should one or both sockets stick "on" for any reason, the redundant thermostats should stop a runaway heater situation. Also, sizing heater is important. My system volume is about 400 gallons. It takes forever for 2 X 200 watt heaters to raise the temperature much. however, they keep the temperature within the hysteresis setting.

Bob
 
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d2mini

d2mini

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I have my two heaters setup in a way where one heater turns on by the assigned temp from the temp sensor and the second heater comes on by programming a virtual sensor. Say - My main heater comes on at 78.7 and my secondary heater kicks on at 78.0.. If for some reason my main heater is not putting out.
Exactly what I want to do.
How do you set up the virtual sensor?
 

clownsrcool

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I have my two heaters setup in a way where one heater turns on by the assigned temp from the temp sensor and the second heater comes on by programming a virtual sensor. Say - My main heater comes on at 78.7 and my secondary heater kicks on at 78.0.. If for some reason my main heater is not putting out.


I'm not sure this would be the best way to prevent a disaster and also seems like an inefficient way to heat your tank. The inefficiency comes in to play because you are basically heating your tank with 1 heater which takes longer and this uses more electricity. People overlook just how much power a heater consumes relative to everything else in the system. It's prob your #1 or 2 consumer. So you want that running as efficiently as possible.

Next is the fact that heaters almost always fail in the on position. Your current set up is preparing for the opposite. The point of using 2 heaters is to use 2 smaller ones so that if one is locked in the on position it's not big enough to raise your tank temp into a dangerous level. If it fails in the on position and is sized correctly it should be able to keep your water around the minimum of the desired range but not heat it well over that.

So if yours fails it's probably big enough to raise the temp much too high on its own. In my opinion too it's easier to deal with a tank with no heat than one with too much. Most people keep their house at a reasonable temp and with no heat at least it won't fall below ambient temps. It should be a little higher always due to the heat given off by other equipment that's running. I'd rather be stuck with no heat rather that way too much.
 
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Jerel

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Exactly what I want to do.
How do you set up the virtual sensor?

Ha! I don't remember the exact steps while I am away from home, but you'll have to manually input a virtual sensor from the ProfiLux itself. -Navigating to System> Virtual Probes.

After you create a virtual sensor, then you can configure your settings in GCC. You should see a new sensor listed.

I'll update this post later if someone else doesn't hop in.

I'm not sure this would be the best way to prevent a disaster and also seems like an inefficient way to heat your tank. The inefficiency comes in to play because you are basically heating your tank with 1 heater which takes longer and this uses more electricity. People overlook just how much power a heater consumes relative to everything else in the system. It's prob your #1 or 2 consumer. So you want that running as efficiently as possible.

Next is the fact that heaters almost always fail in the on position. Your current set up is preparing for the opposite. The point of using 2 heaters is to use 2 smaller ones so that if one is locked in the on position it's not big enough to raise your tank temp into a dangerous level. If it fails in the on position and is sized correctly it should be able to keep your water around the minimum of the desired range but not heat it well over that.

So if yours fails it's probably big enough to raise the temp much too high on its own. In my opinion too it's easier to deal with a tank with no heat than one with too much. Most people keep their house at a reasonable temp and with no heat at least it won't fall below ambient temps. It should be a little higher always due to the heat given off by other equipment that's running. I'd rather be stuck with no heat rather that way too much.

I don't happen to have a problem with heating my tanks, especially not my bedroom tank. My GHL ambient/humidity sensor plays a small part for my bedroom system to monitor air temperature(Controlling my tank cooling system)as my bedroom is the only room that is hotter because of how the sun beams through my large windows in the late morning to afternoon.

Not seeing how my heaters would cook my tank as the ProfiLux will shut down those sockets in case of high temp...
 

clownsrcool

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Right but that's your only defense is your temp probe. Why even have the 2 heaters is what I'm saying. That whole idea was proposed to combat the common failures for heaters which is being stuck on. It sounds like your second heater probably hasn't turned once since you've created that program so what's the point?
 
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d2mini

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Interesting debate.

The way I see it is, I have two heaters for redundancy. One is probably enough to keep the temp stable. So why have two coming on, using twice the power, since like you say, they are pretty high wattage.
Is two on for a short period different than one for a longer period? That I don't know.

As far as failure goes, our house drops down into the 60's at night. I'm not comfortable with that temp for my reef.

So I just want one heater to run the majority of the time and if it fails or can't keep up, the second will kick on.
Maybe there is a way to use Programmable Logic to have the second kick on after the first has been running for a certain time period to help with efficiency?
 

Lasse

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I only use titan Heather without internal thermostat. To use heaters with internal thermostat is to ask for trouble!


In one of the application I have done I use the same trick as Jerel and Bob Stohrer. And I use the pulse variable function to both.


How to create a virtual temp probe.



Step 1. Checking indexes. Start GCC – connect your P4. To the left – expand probe/sensor controls. Note sensor index. If everything goes the right way – your new virtuel temp probe will have the last index +1. Is last index 4 – the new sensor shall have 5.

Step 2. Log out from GCC – you most create the virtual probe direct from the device. In P3 there is a remote control implemented in the GCC. P4 lacks this just now so you need to create the virtual probe directly in the device.

Step 3 Touch the check mark on you device. Use up arrow to highlight System. Thouch the check mark again. Use the up arrow to reach Virtual Probes. Check mark. Higlight New Virt probe. Check mark. High light Copy. Check mark. Higlight the temperature sensor. Check mark. Question coming up Save Now: left arrow to highlight Yes. Check mark

Step 4 Start GCC. Check so the new temp sensor (2) index is the highest. If not – you have to recalibrate the sensors that have a higher index. It should not happen but it has happen for me in system including exp. Boxes. Now you can configure your new sensor!

I show you how it looks in P3 – its nearly the same method as p4

Screen Shot 03-06-17 at 08.19 PM.PNG

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Screen Shot 03-06-17 at 08.20 PM 001.PNG

Screen Shot 03-06-17 at 08.20 PM 002.PNG

Screen Shot 03-06-17 at 08.20 PM 003.PNG

Screen Shot 03-06-17 at 08.21 PM.PNG

Sincerely Lasse
 

Lasse

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Configure a nominal value that you want - let us say 78.0 F. The second that should kick in if your main failure or can not maintance the wanted temperature -> should have a nominal value that is lower compared with the main. I prefer 1 hysteresis below the main. If you do this way - you will not need any more programming. But do not overload the Power bar if both running.

Sincerely Lasse
 

Mortie31

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I personally wouldn't let a heater with a built thermostat any where near my system, they are IMO just to fragile, they either fail in the on position or the glass cracks. I prefer a titanium heater with a controller... I'm deciding whether to get rid of my aquamedic heating/cooling controller and leave it up to my Profilux which would use up 3 sockets or simply plug the aquamedic controller into one socket on my powerbar and set up a just in case s**t happens double fail safe temp poweroff with an alarm.
 

BCSreef

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Exactly what I want to do.
How do you set up the virtual sensor?

Jerel has it right. You can't create virtual probes on using GCC. You need to go to the P4 box and Navigate to System> Virtual Probes> New Virt. Probe> Copy> Temperature 1. That will give you Temperature 2. It will looks like a 2nd temp probe. You can change Nominal Value and most of the other parameters. The actual measured value will be the same for all the virtual Temp. probes.

Bob
 

BCSreef

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I personally wouldn't let a heater with a built thermostat any where near my system, they are IMO just to fragile, they either fail in the on position or the glass cracks. I prefer a titanium heater with a controller... I'm deciding whether to get rid of my aquamedic heating/cooling controller and leave it up to my Profilux which would use up 3 sockets or simply plug the aquamedic controller into one socket on my powerbar and set up a just in case s**t happens double fail safe temp poweroff with an alarm.

True! I have never had one stick on in > 50 years. However, I can't even count the ones that cracked or leaked or the nichrome element just fried.

Given the great feedback here, I will certainly look at two of the titanium units with redundant electronic controllers.

Bob
 
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