Understanding Vibrant: Algaefix, Polixetonium Chloride / Busan 77

LRT · Mar 10, 2022

avidhexagrammid said:
I saw comments from UWC that 1) indicated the use of bacterial metabolites (i.e., cell free) from cyanobacteria and select Bacillus spp. that involve the production of polyaspartic acid; 2) suggested that the quat-like response is normal; and 3) that the lab who developed it is slated to present this research at an upcoming conference for the American Society of Microbiologists. I'm assuming it's a biotech firm and the 'bacteria blend' has remained a proprietary secret because they're working on a patent and/or publication. That's pretty normal. I've checked and the book of abstracts for that conference is not out yet but it seems plausible to me due to how easily it can be verified.

I don't somehow believe this, I am asking for clarity. If certain compounds are present at low enough concentrations and would normally have some peak overlap to begin with, could their signals have poor resolution compared to something like a QAC that's present in larger amounts? Also, it contains a QAC, are we sure it's polixetonium and not something like cholinium?

Thank you! I was asking for specifically this reason, not QACs.

Are you suggesting that they have super bioengineered some kind of bacteria based chemical that appears to be the same one that's in Vibrant and Algaefix?

reef_ranch · Mar 10, 2022

Just some guy from Reddit, eh? No connection to UWC, eh? Just interested in robust scientific debate about reef products, eh?

Why not honestly tell us who you are and why you’re here? Are you being paid to write these posts?

Dan_P · Mar 10, 2022

LRT said:
Are you suggesting that they have super bioengineered some kind of bacteria based chemical that appears to be the same one that's in Vibrant and Algaefix?

Just a thought...This new R2R member sounds like what I would expect a paid Vibrant spokesperson to sound like trying to discredit the @taricha analytical work. Focusing on certain points people have made suggests that these are the particularly troublesome ideas. I would not be surprised if this turns out to be a dress rehearsal for the long awaited Vibrant reply.

LRT · Mar 10, 2022

Dan_P said:
Just a thought...This new R2R member sounds like what I would expect a paid Vibrant spokesperson to sound like trying to discredit the @taricha analytical work. Focusing on certain points people have made suggests that these are the particularly troublesome ideas. I would not be surprised if this turns out to be a dress rehearsal for the long awaited Vibrant reply.

Exactly my thoughts and makes sense why all we have recieved is the vague we 100% stand by our product and are testing things statement.
Absoloutely appears that this may end up the way its going to be played here.

Malcontent · Mar 10, 2022

The FTC requires disclosing any consideration given in exchange for promoting a product on social media. This means you, shills.

RyonFly · Mar 10, 2022

dang, UWC went through a lot of effort to create Algaefix.

Sean Clark · Mar 10, 2022

Sean Clark said:
^^ sus

I called it on page 32 post #627. They came in swinging out of nowhere.

LRT · Mar 10, 2022

My guess is @avidhexagrammid is a representative of UWC/3rd party super bioengineering group.
Doesn't appear that we will see conflicting test results from anyone at this point. The gig is pretty much up on that front as there are too many bottles out there to replicate and get same exact results.
Nor will we see truthful results or explanation provided.
Appears they are sticking to same story they have told all along. Somehow they have created some kind of super bioengineered chemical that appears to be the exact same chemical and mulloscicide as in algefix.
They will hide this all behind patents of magical proprietary blends.
Sure hope I'm wrong but I'm sure this is how many of us dumb red necks are seeing it.

Eagle_Steve · Mar 10, 2022

LRT said:
dumb red necks

Hey. I resemble that lol.

LRT · Mar 10, 2022

Eagle_Steve said:
Hey. I resemble that lol.

Dude I almost said engineered red necks but didn't want to sound that smart hahahaha dang man we are for sure on same page!

jda · Mar 10, 2022

Aren't we to the point where only honest questions need be answered? The doubters should just be met with a suggestion to put some skin in the game, do their own tests and stop playing arm-chair chemist? Let them spend their own money and time and then everybody else can just sit on the sidelines and pass judgement on them from a keyboard? Post 1 is the baseline, right? Peer reviewed and confirmed.

Besides, I would be shocked if at least BRS with all of their resources were not at least doing what I outlined, but probably enhancing it with more samples and stuff. Heck, they could buy some raw busan 77, dilute it and test it too. I kinda wanted to cap myself at $1000... I love the hobby, but I have more limits than they do.

"On this episode of BRS investigates..."

LRT · Mar 10, 2022

jda said:
Aren't we to the point where only honest questions need be answered? The doubters should just be met with a suggestion to put some skin in the game, do their own tests and stop playing arm-chair chemist? Let them spend their own money and time and then everybody else can just sit on the sidelines and pass judgement on them from a keyboard? Post 1 is the baseline, right? Peer reviewed and confirmed.

Besides, I would be shocked if at least BRS with all of their resources were not at least doing what I outlined, but probably enhancing it with more samples and stuff. Heck, they could buy some raw busan 77, dilute it and test it too. I kinda wanted to cap myself at $1000... I love the hobby, but I have more limits than they do. "On this episode of BRS investigates..."

One question bro- How long did it take for you to get results back?
And why does it feel like we are being 100% slow played by Vibrant in getting any kind of real response or explanation from all this?

jda · Mar 10, 2022

I took the bottle to them a few days ago. They are doing it as they can. I just bought the bottle last week. A commercial lab is probably different, but I have no idea.

LRT · Mar 10, 2022

jda said:
I took the bottle to them a few days ago. They are doing it as they can. I just bought the bottle last week. A commercial lab is probably different, but I have no idea.

Right on man I dont think anyone's buying the shenanigans at this point.
Also 100% agreed with your statement. Honest, transparent, full matching panel of testing and results like @taricha provided is the only reasonable way to move forward from here. Not sure how we could accept anything less at this point.

jeffww · Mar 10, 2022

If uwc has legal counsel they never post again. Anything they could possibly say will not help them.

taricha · Mar 10, 2022

The Reef Dork said:
I don't think this has been asked but forgive me if I've missed it!

Why did you decide to do these tests?

The Reef Dork said:
@taricha just tagging you as I think you missed this...

Short version: In the past, I've looked at a bunch of bacterial products and what the heterotroph bacteria do for a tank was always hard to say, but Vibrant was clear-cut, fast, and obvious - so there were quite a few clever observers who were open to an additional chemical mechanism as an explanation. Lots of folks had a similar desire to know the Vibrant mechanism of action - the "tasting vibrant" thread being a memorable effort.

A simple Bromphenol Blue test method was posted, I checked and it distinguished vibrant from all other bacterial products and made it look similar to algaefix. Digging deeper it became clear it would be hard to tell the difference between vibrant and algaefix. which is how I eventually got to...

taricha said:
I actually spent a fairly large amount of time trying to eliminate the very boring/stupid possibility that Vibrant simply replicated the Algaefix ingredient and concentration and added nothing else. I was unable to eliminate that possibility.

In case it's not already apparent from this thread, this was really quite a collaborative community effort, and a credit to R2R. My posts may have given the impression it was mostly me, but lots of people lent time, effort, and brains. It's always nice to have smart people who'll let you ask dumb questions.

Gribbles · Mar 10, 2022

I have personally bought numerous bottles of vibrant over the years.

They must be in "damage control"mode

LRT · Mar 11, 2022

taricha said:
Short version: In the past, I've looked at a bunch of bacterial products and what the heterotroph bacteria do for a tank was always hard to say, but Vibrant was clear-cut, fast, and obvious - so there were quite a few clever observers who were open to an additional chemical mechanism as an explanation. Lots of folks had a similar desire to know the Vibrant mechanism of action - the "tasting vibrant" thread being a memorable effort.
A simple Bromphenol Blue test method was posted, I checked and it distinguished vibrant from all other bacterial products and made it look similar to algaefix. Digging deeper it became clear it would be hard to tell the difference between vibrant and algaefix. which is how I eventually got to...

In case it's not already apparent from this thread, this was really quite a collaborative community effort, and a credit to R2R. My posts may have given the impression it was mostly me, but lots of people lent time, effort, and brains. It's always nice to have smart people who'll let you ask dumb questions.

Re-Cap
Im not sure it didn't go a little something like this

Randy Holmes-Farley · Mar 11, 2022

Christoph said:
Fantastic to have so much NMR data here on R2R.

Im synthetic organic chemist by training and thus have had many NMRs to measure and to interpret. There is no doubt the substances in all 3 measurements (the two initially submitted by taricha and the recent one from jda) are matching, meaning all samples had the same organic chemical composition.

Also the NMR data is matching what would be expected from a chemical structure like Busan 77.

Best regards,
Christoph