Unsuccessful Fallow period

Fowler freak · Mar 10, 2020

Ok so I’m giving this my best shot AGAIN. Objective? To get rid of marine ich once and for all. I let my 250 gallon (fish/invert only) tank run for well over 78 days fallow while Copper powering at 2.0(Hanna) all fish for over 30 days in separate qt tanks. After I added qt’d fish back in things were great for two months. For the first time in 5 years I only did water changes and fed the fish without worrying about anything else, it was fan-freaking-tastic. Then Bam ich was back in my tank after a stressful jagged w/c. I can’t do what I did before and chance doing this massive amount of work for nothing only to see ich return. My plan is already in action and here it is.
*Empty tank of sand rocks and water
*Run tap water for a few days then drain
*Resurface acrylic
*Let everything dry including sump, overflow, and all live rock
*Throw sand away and buy new dry sand
*Seed the tank with gallons of bacteria and let run until cycled
*Then add the fish back in the tank after 30 days of copper power
*Add inverts after 78 days in separate qt tank which has dead sand and rocks minus seeded sponge filter that was in the display.

I know this is pretty aggressive/unorthodox but I dont know what else to do to ensure ichs death. I have TONS of live rock and sand and believe that has a lot to do with ichs survival after all I did. Trying to “start over” here and refuse to do the traditional 78 day fallow and potentially get the same result. Your thoughts/concerns would be greatly appreciated my reef2reef family.

CuzzA · Mar 10, 2020

Just a thought, but why not pull rocks, acid bath, bleach then dose bacteria and start cycling in a brute can, kiddie pool. Remove sand and rinse and let it dry out completely. Give tank and sump a good interior wipe down, no need to fully drain. Put inverts in qt. And treat the display with the fish with Chloroquine Phosphate per instructions.

Reef AquaCult · Mar 10, 2020

Are you 100% sure you don’t have a sand dwelling or small fish in the sand or sump that stayed in during fallow? You could also remove fish and inverts and raise temp of aquarium to speed the Ich life cycle. Your plan sounds like a lot of work and even with all the work you’re likely to miss something IMO. I like the inverts in QT and use CP as suggested above @CuzzA

Fowler freak · Mar 10, 2020

I’m not opposed to any of that and my minds ticking. At the moment Ive let my rocks dry out (maybe some big ones are wet in the core/center) but soaking them in RO for a few days then let dry again. I don’t have any CP and have never used it before for I’ve only used cupramine and copper power. I would love to Qt all of my fish in my display rather than having them in 2 separate tanks in the garage with the heaters on constantly. I thought maybe there might have been a watchman goby in the tank that ruined the fallow period but nothing that I saw. DEFINITELY nothing in there now for as I mentioned earlier I ran tap water in the tank for days minus my live rock that was outside drying with sAnd in the trash.

Reef AquaCult · Mar 10, 2020

Fowler freak said:
I’m not opposed to any of that and my minds ticking. At the moment Ive let my rocks dry out (maybe some big ones are wet in the core/center) but soaking them in RO for a few days then let dry again. I don’t have any CP and have never used it before for I’ve only used cupramine and copper power. I would love to Qt all of my fish in my display rather than having them in 2 separate tanks in the garage with the heaters on constantly. I thought maybe there might have been a watchman goby in the tank that ruined the fallow period but nothing that I saw. DEFINITELY nothing in there now for as I mentioned earlier I ran tap water in the tank for days minus my live rock that was outside drying with sAnd in the trash.

You’re plan is intense but it will work! Following along

Anthony Scholfield · Mar 10, 2020

I believe the best way to rid your fish of ich is the tank transfer method. I suspect your copper treatment was not sufficient. Ich cannot survive without a fish host so a tank left fallow for that amount of time would not still have ich, unless you counted wrong. Just my thoughts and experience on the matter.

Fowler freak · Mar 10, 2020

Anthony Scholfield said:
I believe the best way to rid your fish of ich is the tank transfer method. I suspect your copper treatment was not sufficient. Ich cannot survive without a fish host so a tank left fallow for that amount of time would not still have ich, unless you counted wrong. Just my thoughts and experience on the matter.

Is there a possibility that ich can survive 30 days of copper at 2.0 copper power? Is there such a ich parasite that is resistant to such levels of copper?

CuzzA · Mar 10, 2020

Fowler freak said:
Is there a possibility that ich can survive 30 days of copper at 2.0 copper power? Is there such a ich parasite that is resistant to such levels of copper?

I doubt it. You said you had a lot of rock and I recall in anaerobic areas ich tomonts can basically hibernate, for lack of a better term, until the conditions are aerobic again.

TerraFerma · Mar 10, 2020

Fowler freak said:
Is there a possibility that ich can survive 30 days of copper at 2.0 copper power? Is there such a ich parasite that is resistant to such levels of copper?

the bottle says to use at 2.5

Anthony Scholfield · Mar 10, 2020

CuzzA said:
I doubt it. You said you had a lot of rock and I recall in anaerobic areas ich tomonts can basically hibernate, for lack of a better term, until the conditions are aerobic again.

I could be wrong but all my research shows that ich has a very specific life cycle and does not go dormant. That is why the fallow period works.

Jeeperz · Mar 10, 2020

Maybe @Humblefish or @4FordFamily can chime in

flsalty · Mar 10, 2020

Good luck. I think what you decided to do is way more massive than what you did before. If you did the fallow period properly the ich was not in your tank.

CuzzA · Mar 10, 2020

Anthony Scholfield said:
I could be wrong but all my research shows that ich has a very specific life cycle and does not go dormant. That is why the fallow period works.

Yes, if the conditions for the life cycle are right. If not, it appears it will wait until they are right.

Why a fallow period will sometimes fail

We've all seen claims of ich, velvet, etc. returning after a 76 day fallow period. (For anyone wondering what a fallow period means click here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fallow-periods-going-fishless.190324/) Oftentimes, a fallow period failure is due to human error: The sick fish...

www.reef2reef.com

We've all seen claims of ich, velvet, etc. returning after a 76 day fallow period. (For anyone wondering what a fallow period means click here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fallow-periods-going-fishless.190324/)

Oftentimes, a fallow period failure is due to human error: The sick fish weren't treated long enough or the treatment itself wasn't done properly, cross contamination via wet hands or equipment, aerosol transmission (more info). It is also possible that undiscovered strains of ich (and other diseases) exist; ones with a prolonged life cycle that exceeds what we know to be true from scientific research. However, there is also this possibility to consider:

Dormancy induced by a hypoxic environment in tomonts of Cryptocaryon irritans, a parasitic ciliate of marine teleosts

Abstract
We incubated tomonts of Cryptocaryon irritans in a hypoxic seawater environment (1.4–1.7 mg/L O2) (low dissolved oxygen; DO) and examined their development using a acetocarmine whole-mount staining method we developed for nuclear staining. They showed little development and stayed in the dormant phase in the hypoxic environment. When transferred into the hypoxic environment after incubation in an oxic environment (air-saturated, 8.7–8.9 mg/L O2) for 1–4 days, their development stopped in 1 day. However, when dormant tomonts generated in the hypoxic environment were transferred to the oxic environment, they resumed development and released theronts. These results indicate that tomonts can become dormant when exposed to a hypoxic environment, but can resume development when exposed to an oxic environment at any developmental stage. When exposed to the oxic environment, tomonts recovered from 1-month dormancy and released as many theronts as control tomonts constantly incubated in the oxic environment. The infectivity of theronts from the recovered tomonts was similar to the control tomonts. Thermoclines prevent oxygen-rich surface seawater from reaching the bottom of water column and create a hypoxic sea floor environment in summer; these thermoclines are broken down in autumn or after typhoons. The long-term viability of dormant tomonts in hypoxic environments may be a key factor in the autumn outbreaks of cryptocaryoniasis in floating net cages in temperate waters.

Highlights from the study:

This study demonstrates that tomonts of Cryptocaryon irritans become dormant in hypoxic environments.
- Dormant tomonts resume development in oxic environments at any developmental stages.
- We examined tomont viability following variable sequences of oxic and hypoxic conditions.
- Dormancy in hypoxic environments may be key to the autumn outbreaks of cryptocaryoniasis in floating net cages in temperate waters.

4FordFamily · Mar 10, 2020

Your new plan is to treat in DT, correct?

If so, I suppose the plan could work.

I also have had fallow fail, but cross contamination with a dirty QT or a failed fallow was the culprit. I had velvet survive sub 2.0 copper power but not ich. I believe it was 1.55 it survived but my memory is fuzzy and I’m too lazy to locate @HotRocks thread.

Sorry for the trouble, I know it’s not fun!

Anthony Scholfield · Mar 10, 2020

So can we have a hypoxic environment in our home aquria with the shallow depth and flow we generate?

Fowler freak · Mar 10, 2020

4FordFamily said:
Your new plan is to treat in DT, correct?

If so, I suppose the plan could work.

I also have had fallow fail, but cross contamination with a dirty QT or a failed fallow was the culprit. I had velvet survive sub 2.0 copper power but not ich. I believe it was 1.55 it survived but my memory is fuzzy and I’m too lazy to locate @HotRocks thread.

Sorry for the trouble, I know it’s not fun!

No the DT is empty after emptying it,replacing the sand, and drying the live rock and soaking it in RO. All of my fish are in a qt tank in the garage which will be coppered with copper power for 30 days. All of my inverts are in a separate tank with dead rock and sand but took a seeded sponge out of the DT sump for them. Would love to dose the fish in the DT but am pretty apprehensive in doing so because I’ve pretty much sterilized it.

4FordFamily · Mar 10, 2020

Fowler freak said:
No the DT is empty after emptying it,replacing the sand, and drying the live rock and soaking it in RO. All of my fish are in a qt tank in the garage which will be coppered with copper power for 30 days. All of my inverts are in a separate tank with dead rock and sand but took a seeded sponge out of the DT sump for them. Would love to dose the fish in the DT but am pretty apprehensive in doing so because I’ve pretty much sterilized it.

If anything stayed wet in the main tank, it's possible, perhaps likely that the parasites remain. They're virulent little... things. Fresh water doesn't do it, velvet can remain there for quite a while and then return when the salinity is raised.

@Humblefish was telling me about this a few months ago

Fowler freak · Mar 10, 2020

4FordFamily said:
If anything stayed wet in the main tank, it's possible, perhaps likely that the parasites remain. They're virulent little... things. Fresh water doesn't do it, velvet can remain there for quite a while and then return when the salinity is raised.

@Humblefish was telling me about this a few months ago

Ran the tank empty with tap water for almost a week then drained, had the whole tank buffed out and now putting a fan in the sump until Its completely dry. Then drying out the large overflow after I poured boiling tap water inside it because there was a layer of sludge I couldn’t shopvac out. This is my last ditch effort to get rid of ich forever.