Upgrade disaster

[brandon429]

have you noticed that people actually don't want the sand to be the cause, there's something riding on it if it is.

a form of uncertainty...

certainty is where someone creates a thread that says

post here, we will relocate and upgrade your tank, no rinse.

 

[Crustaceon]

The problem isn’t using old sand. It’s swapping the sand fast enough to prevent it from getting too cold and killing the bacteria, which then releases all kinds of bad stuff and kills your critters. Second on giving that sand a good rinse. Old tank water also works great for that purpose. The idea is to get the detritus out while leaving the bacteria in place. I’ve done many swaps by removing all rock and then using a gravel vacuum on the entire sandbed with the hose in the sump’s filter sock. You might go through several filter socks in this process but the water itself is generally reusable afterwards for the swap.

 

[brandon429]

I think that's a valid point, to have a tradeoff poisoning event that may not be directly nh3 ammonia. we know that degraded bacterial products are toxic that's undoubted in certain combos, even dead e coli cells half degraded are poisonous to us/ toxic so why not here, agreed possible. that's a solid possibility.

sand depending on its zonation for the sampling is chock full of aerobes, anaerobes and mixed states of decay and nh3 might be the smallest fraction. still quite a bad soup.

This thread helps reef tanks, nice job.

 

[Sallstrom]

have you noticed that people actually don't want the sand to be the cause, there's something riding on it if it is.

a form of uncertainty...

certainty is where someone creates a thread that says

post here, we will relocate and upgrade your tank, no rinse.

No. The issue is that you can’t say for sure it was the sand in this case. It could have been. But it could have been other things too.

The sand used was from my other setup .
scooped sand ( 3 scoops approximately 6 cups each )

The 230 was 1/2 full of new mixed rodi water ,
Heated and circulating .
Added fish and corals and about 2 hours later added the sand

If I understand this correct, everything was added two hours after mixing RO water and salt. Then after that the dirty sand.

I see more things than the old sand being a possible problem.

Edited for spelling.

 

[brandon429]

Let me get an official tally - we're preparing a tank transfer work thread in members forum, so all of somebody's investment is on the line.

Am I hearing correct that everyone here other than Crustaceon wants me to advise them to just move the whole current bed over, meaning scoop and drop, and that's what we're going for am I off

Though we haven't seen any work links for that, it's default we should be certain imo

Or does blasting the sand with tap water for an hour really appear to be the best option

Or does this thread advise clean main sand, hand fulls of old again

One credit for the sand rinse thread: at least we're consistent. Nobody shows up there unwilling to hit the tap, hard.



u gotta rinse with tap, the sand, lol I know it sounds crazy, if you want the safety. its heinous I am aware. its the only way to zero loss rate, worms have died. no other patterned way is avail for perusing

 

[arking_mark]

have you noticed that people actually don't want the sand to be the cause, there's something riding on it if it is.

a form of uncertainty...

certainty is where someone creates a thread that says

post here, we will relocate and upgrade your tank, no rinse.

I'm not sure people are actually pushing one way or another. It sounds like the OP added a little sand from the old tank to the new tank looking to probably get 'live' sand and the benefit of the biodiversity. Deep sand beds and old sand left to sit can contain hydrogen sulfide which can be toxic at high levels. Based on what I've read, the sand would have to have been extremely stinky and not just the oder of rotten eggs to cause a toxicity problem.

 

[Sallstrom]

Let me get an official tally - we're preparing a tank transfer work thread in members forum, so all of somebody's investment is on the line.

Am I hearing correct that everyone here other than Crustacean wants me to advise them to just move the whole current bed over, meaning scoop and drop, and that's what we're going for am I off

Though we haven't seen any work links for that, it's default we should be certain imo

Or does blasting the sand with tap water for an hour really appear to be the best option

Or does this thread advise clean main sand, hand fulls of old again

One credit for the sand rinse thread: at least we're consistent. Nobody shows up there unwilling to hit the tap, hard.



u gotta rinse with tap, the sand, lol I know it sounds crazy, if you want the safety. its heinous I am aware. its the only way to zero loss rate, worms have died. no other patterned way is avail for perusing

You didn’t hear me say anything about moving sand or not. I would probably buy new sand..

I would not drop fish into saltwater just mixed. That feels like a risk to me. That was my point.

 

[arking_mark]

You didn’t hear me say anything about moving sand or not. I would probably buy new sand..

I would not drop fish into saltwater just mixed. That feels like a risk to me. That was my point.

What is the better way to transfer to a new tank is not really the point here. The OP feels that the addition of several cups of sand from his mature tank killed his fish. I'm arguing that the addition of that sand probably did not cause that issue. People buy and add live sand all the time to add biodiversity to their system. Based on the info provided, I don't believe the new tank was properly cycled and the addition of sand was coincidence or had sufficient die-off that the new tank couldn't handle yet.

 

[brandon429]

I like recommending they replace the bed too S

the going theory is the old one is phosphate exposed, but then on counter point Dan was just talking the other day with R about new beds rapidly sinking up all new phosphates avail till they reach equill

so is exchanging for new sand better / it does look visually better that's for sure

that's mainly why tap rinsing seems so inert/its just taking out the good and the bad so that at all costs the bad is gone. I used to think the bad was always nh3 and now convinced it may not be. we don't have super reliable means for discerning real nh3 action so some guessing fills in

if he transferred live rocks, TBD, then cycle was no issue.
corals seemed to weather than which no fish could, fascinating.

 

[Sallstrom]

What is the better way to transfer to a new tank is not really the point here. The OP feels that the addition of several cups of sand from his mature tank killed his fish. I'm arguing that the addition of that sand probably did not cause that issue. People buy and add live sand all the time to add biodiversity to their system. Based on the info provided, I don't believe the new tank was properly cycled and the addition of sand was coincidence or had sufficient die-off that the new tank couldn't handle yet.

Yes, and I agree with you. I'm just using different words since I haven't read the latest "how to cycle-book" :)
To me it sounded like saltwater was mixed, and an hour later fish went in. And that I guess is not "properly cycled".

@brandon429 - Do not think I'm after you because I oppose some of your posts. I just think you jump conclusions sometimes. Like in this thread. I don't think you can say it was the sand, or you will need to say it might have been the sand together with more stressors, that caused the harm. Adding dirty sand at this stage might have been a bad idea, that I can agree on.
When it comes to moving old sand I think we agree. My comment on buying new sand was from the fact that I work with aquariums and time is important. Cleaning and reusing old sand is great, if you have the time.
Also in kickstarting reef tank I think we agree. I usually use as much old water and LR as I can get my hands on for starting up a new tank, if I can move the water and LR right away(not let it stand still in a bucket over night). Moving sand well sure, within reason. If it's not too dirty, and only if moved directly from another tank etc. But not moving 100% of a 10 year old sand bed without cleaning it into a new tank with corals and/or fish in it.

Sorry for OT answer to Brandon. I couldn't stop.. ;)

 

[brandon429]

One takeaway I get from the thread is that there isn’t a way to identify good sand you can cast around a tank from bad sand you can’t, so don’t ever do it.

people are still going to do it with a high success rate and a low total loss rate, but the technique of total rinse no old sand used will remain 100% safe in every case. Adding in old sand provides no benefit, only risk, the OP will never do it again I’ll bet.

 

[arking_mark]

One takeaway I get from the thread is that there isn’t a way to identify good sand you can cast around a tank from bad sand you can’t, so don’t ever do it.

people are still going to do it with a high success rate and a low total loss rate, but the technique of total rinse no old sand used will remain 100% safe in every case. Adding in old sand provides no benefit, only risk, the OP will never do it again I’ll bet.

Old sand does provide benefits. Like everything it has some risks as well.

 

[brandon429]

no benefits that we can detect.

reasons:

nobody with a handful of sand has wiggling animals, they have detritus and sand grains.

the lack thereof is replaced from the rocks anyway.
people have various undisclosed details in each job and it takes broad-path cleaning to avoid losses.

there is zero bacterial benefit to be had by casting old sand about the tank, that contributes nothing to the stasis of the system and withholding the old sand from the new tank has all the positive tracking.

The positive benefit of not killing $600 in fish comes from not adding the handful here. that recommend to keep adding in old sand will kill a few reef tanks in continuance with the losses here.

 

[brandon429]

managing a work thread by adding back old sand in each job causes losses by page ten is the prediction. and on page 20 cyano w rule, all from not dealing with clean sand upon transfer these are my guesses based on patterns logged

 

[brandon429]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/disturbed-sand-bed.633161/#post-6291496

disturbed the sand and killed all the fish

patterns.


we have twenty more of these, but only one was needed for the Op/his own tank to permanently stop the practice. it very well may be other poisons other than nh3/sulfides who knows, but it comes from the sand says every link in this thread.

incidence of loss is about ~2/100 jobs I think, pretty low. Ratios didn't matter to the fish owners/see that fine print... a loss is a loss and 100% no loss means the sand is implicated by cleaning it, in the sand rinse thread.

guess what isn't 2/100 jobs when moving old sand:

cyano and total GHA takeover a month after the setup, that's 150/200, all by messing with old sand.

number of cyano and diatom and gha problems in the sand rinse thread after following no old sand rules= mighty clean pages of tanks.

 

[Cnidoblast]

Could hydrogen sulfide be the root cause of this?

GFO should be able to bind H2S

 

[brandon429]

not sure

 

[arking_mark]

no benefits that we can detect.

reasons:

nobody with a handful of sand has wiggling animals, they have detritus and sand grains.

the lack thereof is replaced from the rocks anyway.

remember these are easy claims to make without actually running sand work threads

there is zero bacterial benefit to be had by casting old sand about the tank, that contributes nothing to the stasis of the system and withholding the old sand from the new tank has all the positive tracking.

The positive benefit of not killing $600 in fish comes from not adding the handful here. Your recommend will kill a few reef tanks but pre rinsing is becoming more common and maybe they'll choose wisely.

For those of us who keep sandbeds, there is a ton of GREAT biodiversity that supports the tank.

 

[brandon429]

Agreed, it's really only the movement/ relocation that messes up / risks imbalance




see here below where the crowd supports zero sand use, they know when the title says moving, we don’t take old sand its not worth it. So far, the recommends are for clean sand, not a handful of old for a reason and it’s stated. The hobby can see we get safer moves not assuming the old sand brings a critical or even beneficial element into tank transfers. See the unison here
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/moving.805996/#post-8608884

 

[arking_mark]

Could hydrogen sulfide be the root cause of this?

GFO should be able to bind H2S

The sand would smell awful. Based only on reading it would take quite a bit to kill the tank.