Uronema in QT

[asome_one]

I am quarantining some fish in a 40 gallon prior to going in my DT. Seeded from sponges and media from display. I originally added a flasher wrasse, tomini tang, some cardinals, and stripped blenny. I began the process of slowly increasing copper (copper power). Yesterday I added 5 chromis and 1 royal Gramma. All from the same tank at the fish shop. At the time of addition my copper level was 1.06 (Hanna). Drip acclimated for 45 minutes. Increased copper to 1.3 this morning. All were eating. No detectable ammonia. Today I have lost 4 chromis. All showing telltale red oval spots of uronema. It is what it is for the chromis. I am rather concerned for the rest of my fish though. I have researched the limited ability to treat and would rather this not kill my expensive wrasse or tang.
What level of concerned should I be? I have no formaldehyde for treatment. I have metro prazi and copper. I can get other things but it will be at least 2 days before it arrives.

Thank you in advance.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I am quarantining some fish in a 40 gallon prior to going in my DT. Seeded from sponges and media from display. I originally added a flasher wrasse, tomini tang, some cardinals, and stripped blenny. I began the process of slowly increasing copper (copper power). Yesterday I added 5 chromis and 1 royal Gramma. All from the same tank at the fish shop. At the time of addition my copper level was 1.06 (Hanna). Drip acclimated for 45 minutes. Increased copper to 1.3 this morning. All were eating. No detectable ammonia. Today I have lost 4 chromis. All showing telltale red oval spots of uronema. It is what it is for the chromis. I am rather concerned for the rest of my fish though. I have researched the limited ability to treat and would rather this not kill my expensive wrasse or tang.
What level of concerned should I be? I have no formaldehyde for treatment. I have metro prazi and copper. I can get other things but it will be at least 2 days before it arrives.

Thank you in advance.

Pictures would be very helpful for both assessment and confirmation. For Chromis and anthias, I recommend Ruby Rally pro bath for 90 minutes. Chloroquine Phosphate will also work but must be used precisely. Uronema is a non obligate parasite, and can thrive on bacteria, uneaten food, and waste so besides treatment also maintain a clean tank removing waste daily.
Once in QT tank, treat and assure that the parasites have been eliminated.

 

[winxp_man]

I am quarantining some fish in a 40 gallon prior to going in my DT. Seeded from sponges and media from display. I originally added a flasher wrasse, tomini tang, some cardinals, and stripped blenny. I began the process of slowly increasing copper (copper power). Yesterday I added 5 chromis and 1 royal Gramma. All from the same tank at the fish shop. At the time of addition my copper level was 1.06 (Hanna). Drip acclimated for 45 minutes. Increased copper to 1.3 this morning. All were eating. No detectable ammonia. Today I have lost 4 chromis. All showing telltale red oval spots of uronema. It is what it is for the chromis. I am rather concerned for the rest of my fish though. I have researched the limited ability to treat and would rather this not kill my expensive wrasse or tang.
What level of concerned should I be? I have no formaldehyde for treatment. I have metro prazi and copper. I can get other things but it will be at least 2 days before it arrives.

Thank you in advance.

Uro can survive copper. Food for thought.

Metro can possibly take care of it if dosed correctly. I have a LFS that just has it in all its tanks. Sadly they really nice fish all the time. My last interaction with 4 dead flame angles has been uro from this shop. Since then purchase many other angels, but, I started doing something different. I started doing H2o2 baths with all fish from this place. Have yet to get uronema. Then I purchased a Venustus Angel. It was late in the day so I just acclimated and in the QT. 3.5 weeks later, by itself the only fish, I had to put it down because of uronema. All I did differently was not do a H2o2 bath.

20 ml per gal of SW for 30 min.

Maybe anecdotal info, but it works for me.

 

[asome_one]

I am quarantining some fish in a 40 gallon prior to going in my DT. Seeded from sponges and media from display. I originally added a flasher wrasse, tomini tang, some cardinals, and stripped blenny. I began the process of slowly increasing copper (copper power). Yesterday I added 5 chromis and 1 royal Gramma. All from the same tank at the fish shop. At the time of addition my copper level was 1.06 (Hanna). Drip acclimated for 45 minutes. Increased copper to 1.3 this morning. All were eating. No detectable ammonia. Today I have lost 4 chromis. All showing telltale red oval spots of uronema. It is what it is for the chromis. I am rather concerned for the rest of my fish though. I have researched the limited ability to treat and would rather this not kill my expensive wrasse or tang.
What level of concerned should I be? I have no formaldehyde for treatment. I have metro prazi and copper. I can get other things but it will be at least 2 days before it arrives.

Thank you in advance.

Pictures would be very helpful for both assessment and confirmation. For Chromis and anthias, I recommend Ruby Rally pro bath for 90 minutes. Chloroquine Phosphate will also work but must be used precisely. Uronema is an obligate parasite, and can thrive on bacteria, uneaten food, and waste so besides treatment also maintain a clean tank removing waste daily.
Once in QT tank, treat and assure that the parasites have been eliminated.

Sure thing.

I definitely am guilty of not maintaining the cleanest of QTs. I have had intermittent bacterial blooms. I ensure the water is heavily aerated and I pay attention to all the fish to ensure no heavy breathing at rest and such.

I may have to step up my game, feed less and water change larger.

 

[asome_one]

I am quarantining some fish in a 40 gallon prior to going in my DT. Seeded from sponges and media from display. I originally added a flasher wrasse, tomini tang, some cardinals, and stripped blenny. I began the process of slowly increasing copper (copper power). Yesterday I added 5 chromis and 1 royal Gramma. All from the same tank at the fish shop. At the time of addition my copper level was 1.06 (Hanna). Drip acclimated for 45 minutes. Increased copper to 1.3 this morning. All were eating. No detectable ammonia. Today I have lost 4 chromis. All showing telltale red oval spots of uronema. It is what it is for the chromis. I am rather concerned for the rest of my fish though. I have researched the limited ability to treat and would rather this not kill my expensive wrasse or tang.
What level of concerned should I be? I have no formaldehyde for treatment. I have metro prazi and copper. I can get other things but it will be at least 2 days before it arrives.

Thank you in advance.

Uro can survive copper. Food for thought.

Metro can possibly take care of it if dosed correctly. I have a LFS that just has it in all its tanks. Sadly they really nice fish all the time. My last interaction with 4 dead flame angles has been uro from this shop. Since then purchase many other angels, but, I started doing something different. I started doing H2o2 baths with all fish from this place. Have yet to get uronema. Then I purchased a Venustus Angel. It was late in the day so I just acclimated and in the QT. 3.5 weeks later, by itself the only fish, I had to put it down because of uronema. All I did differently was not do a H2o2 bath.

20 ml per gal of SW for 30 min.

Maybe anecdotal info, but it works for me.

I read briefly read about uro before getting the chromis but didn't catch the part where it could spread to non damsel non chromis type fish. Dumb me. That's an interesting process. Isn't the uro internal that late stage shows external features? I wonder how the h2o2 is managing to stave it off. I mean, I have plenty of h2o2 so I could give it a go on my last chromis if it's not already dead.

 

[Cael Gallery]

I read briefly read about uro before getting the chromis but didn't catch the part where it could spread to non damsel non chromis type fish. Dumb me. That's an interesting process. Isn't the uro internal that late stage shows external features? I wonder how the h2o2 is managing to stave it off. I mean, I have plenty of h2o2 so I could give it a go on my last chromis if it's not already dead.

Any fish can have uronema but most fish seem to be completely unaffected by it, it's mostly just chromis.

 

[mcarroll]

I am quarantining some fish in a 40 gallon prior to going in my DT. Seeded from sponges and media from display. I originally added a flasher wrasse, tomini tang, some cardinals, and stripped blenny. I began the process of slowly increasing copper (copper power). Yesterday I added 5 chromis and 1 royal Gramma. All from the same tank at the fish shop.

Sounds like a lot of fish in what is by definition an unstable tank. Consider that this is probably adding stress to their condition.

Drip acclimated for 45 minutes.

This is excessive and might also contribute to your fishes early demise by further weakening their innate immune system.

Check out Sustainable Aquatics' *very complete* white paper on acclimation so you understand when you should actually use an intensive acclimation process. (Hint: Only if the fish has been in the bag for a long period so that CO2 and ammonia have built up. Read the doc tho!)

http://www.sustainableaquatics.com/docs/Acclimation-White-Paper.docx

You will notice that it's very different, for some very good reasons, from what you did. In most cases for hobbyists like you and me a much simpler acclimation (or even NO acclimation) are better options.

obligate parasite

Maybe a minor point, but "obligate" means it can't survive without its (fish) host. I think you mean something else where *it can* survive without its host?

I started doing H2o2 baths with all fish from this place. Have yet to get uronema.
[....]

Maybe anecdotal info, but it works for me.

I don't think it's merely anecdotal...just more niche than it should be. (IMO, anyway.)

We don't tend to have a lot of regard here for academic/scientific writing in this subject area, but an authority that gets a lot of respect outside of our fish disease forum recommends peroxide baths.

Except for the lack of regard already mentioned I don't understand how everyone doesn't already do a freshwater dip on all new fish....and amending it with peroxide seems like a no-brainer since it's apparently generally well tolerated and makes and already-effective, well-tolerated freshwater dip even more effective.

Maybe someday. :)

I definitely am guilty of not maintaining the cleanest of QTs. I have had intermittent bacterial blooms. I ensure the water is heavily aerated and I pay attention to all the fish to ensure no heavy breathing at rest and such.

QT kills as many fish for new hobbyists as disease, I wouldn't be surprised if it were more.

It's easy to do wrong.

It's hard to do right.

It can make a healthy fish sick. It can make a sick fish dead. (You don't hear these possibilities in the sales pitch.)

And it only gets more complicated when you start talking about medicating vs just observing.

Experts claim "great success" but it's not a great combination for anyone new to the process....especially if they are also new to the hobby.

I may have to step up my game, feed less and water change larger.

The difficulty is definitely worth extra consideration.

Most assume it's easy and many get burned.

Restricting food to sick fish is a little like using gasoline to put out a fire. Feed them well, just make sure ZERO food is being wasted in the tank. Keep a small siphon hose, standard filter sock and a bucket near the QT so you can quickly and easily remove food and poops. 1/2" tubing or even airline tubing+some rigid tubing are idea for this. You can pour the water back in the tank at the end, so it won't mess with medication levels or salinity, etc. (Use a fine mesh filter sock if you also want to remove any active parasites from the water while you work.....5 micron socks are available....probably finer too, but they don't pass much water so might be of more limited use. 5 micron should be able to handle a 1/2" siphon hose.

I you REALLY can't properly maintain a QT tank (eg due to time or other factors), simply admit it and look for a different method.

Or....rebuild the QT so that it's better FOR YOU in terms of maintenance. The typically recommended QT is a garbage design anyway if you ask me....set up like a prison cell, which is obviously dumb to me because it's stressful to the fish. QT should be set up like a good, basic fish tank with plenty of ROOM for the fish and plenty of fake decorations and plants so the fish feels more at home, less stressed. Even a piece of live rock (that you keep in the QT) is a great idea.

 

[winxp_man]

I read briefly read about uro before getting the chromis but didn't catch the part where it could spread to non damsel non chromis type fish. Dumb me. That's an interesting process. Isn't the uro internal that late stage shows external features? I wonder how the h2o2 is managing to stave it off. I mean, I have plenty of h2o2 so I could give it a go on my last chromis if it's not already dead.

Had a flame angel that passed from internal. Then had another that was clean of uro (coral beauty) moved to the QT, thinking it will not effect the new one, sure enough the new one got internal uro.

The coral beauty that was added was taken down in about a week. Had this fish for a bit of time. And actually got it from a shop that I have not had uro issues on fish from their systems. I moved it over trying to consolidate tanks. Thinking oh the FA died from internal, the CB sure will not catch it.

I have come to think that uro can be ingested if concentrations are big enough. Or it just makes its way through the large scale of fish with large scales. Fact is a fish does not hatch from its egg with uro. So it has a way to make it into the fish. A open wound possibly, or a lesion of sorts. In my case I didn’t spot any issues with the fishes body to suspect a possibility of uro infection.

I have read a bit into this disease being it has taken out a few beautiful angles, including the most recent the Venustus (correct name Venusta) angle. But most of these aside from the CB I mentioned here in my post have been from the same LFS.

 

[asome_one]

Sounds like a lot of fish in what is by definition an unstable tank. Consider that this is probably adding stress to their condition.


This is excessive and might also contribute to your fishes early demise by further weakening their innate immune system.

Check out Sustainable Aquatics' *very complete* white paper on acclimation so you understand when you should actually use an intensive acclimation process. (Hint: Only if the fish has been in the bag for a long period so that CO2 and ammonia have built up. Read the doc tho!)

http://www.sustainableaquatics.com/docs/Acclimation-White-Paper.docx

You will notice that it's very different, for some very good reasons, from what you did. In most cases for hobbyists like you and me a much simpler acclimation (or even NO acclimation) are better options.


Maybe a minor point, but "obligate" means it can't survive without its (fish) host. I think you mean something else where *it can* survive without its host?


I don't think it's merely anecdotal...just more niche than it should be. (IMO, anyway.)

We don't tend to have a lot of regard here for academic/scientific writing in this subject area, but an authority that gets a lot of respect outside of our fish disease forum recommends peroxide baths.

Except for the lack of regard already mentioned I don't understand how everyone doesn't already do a freshwater dip on all new fish....and amending it with peroxide seems like a no-brainer since it's apparently generally well tolerated and makes and already-effective, well-tolerated freshwater dip even more effective.

Maybe someday. :)


QT kills as many fish for new hobbyists as disease, I wouldn't be surprised if it were more.

It's easy to do wrong.

It's hard to do right.

It can make a healthy fish sick. It can make a sick fish dead. (You don't hear these possibilities in the sales pitch.)

And it only gets more complicated when you start talking about medicating vs just observing.

Experts claim "great success" but it's not a great combination for anyone new to the process....especially if they are also new to the hobby.


The difficulty is definitely worth extra consideration.

Most assume it's easy and many get burned.

Restricting food to sick fish is a little like using gasoline to put out a fire. Feed them well, just make sure ZERO food is being wasted in the tank. Keep a small siphon hose, standard filter sock and a bucket near the QT so you can quickly and easily remove food and poops. 1/2" tubing or even airline tubing+some rigid tubing are idea for this. You can pour the water back in the tank at the end, so it won't mess with medication levels or salinity, etc. (Use a fine mesh filter sock if you also want to remove any active parasites from the water while you work.....5 micron socks are available....probably finer too, but they don't pass much water so might be of more limited use. 5 micron should be able to handle a 1/2" siphon hose.

I you REALLY can't properly maintain a QT tank (eg due to time or other factors), simply admit it and look for a different method.

Or....rebuild the QT so that it's better FOR YOU in terms of maintenance. The typically recommended QT is a garbage design anyway if you ask me....set up like a prison cell, which is obviously dumb to me because it's stressful to the fish. QT should be set up like a good, basic fish tank with plenty of ROOM for the fish and plenty of fake decorations and plants so the fish feels more at home, less stressed. Even a piece of live rock (that you keep in the QT) is a great idea.

Thank you for this detailed response. I drip aclimated as long as I did due to the fish coming in water at 1.018 and my QT being kept at 1.026 with the copper; I really wanted to try to go slow. I will give that paper a proper read.

I don't know how I did not consider micron socks with a pump to polish my water, I have plenty of 1 and 5 microns I use for lanthanum. If that's getting rid of free-swimming parasites, that's fantastic.

I figured a 40 gallon would be substantial for QT since I normally see 10-20 gallons used.

I have never quarantined before. I have always just dropped the fish into my reef and whatever happened, happened. This is my largest system (90gal) with my longest-living clowns, and I really wanted to try to keep them and the reef safe. Theyre the only inhabs other than inverts at the moment. I am a busy person, and I generally don't have a lot of time to contribute to long fish tasks, maybe 1 - 2 days a week. Unfortunately, due to my busy schedule, I wanted to knock it all out at once instead of keeping a large QT system running for multiple months. Seems I should have done it a bit differently.

So my original QT plan was to simply continue to increase copper levels slowly for the wrasse and blenny. Hold for 2-3 weeks. Then tank dose metro. After the responses, I have purchased Ruby Rally Pro. I plan to bathe when this arrives. Would it be a smart idea to also bathe all current fish in the QT with h2o2 at this point? How else should I alter my treatment plan?

Any fish can have uronema but most fish seem to be completely unaffected by it, it's mostly just chromis.

Well, that's good to hear. I know the copper is suppressing everyone's immune system, and my lack of cleanliness is definitely not helping.
Should I go ahead and buy the formaldehyde and treat only the chromis? Or would it be simplest to let it run its course? I don't enjoy watching fish suffer, but as there is only 1 chromis remaining, I do wonder how prudent it is to heavily treat if it is likely to stay as a chromis issue.

 

[mcarroll]

I figured a 40 gallon would be substantial for QT since I normally see 10-20 gallons used.

It's certainly better than those options....and might be fine. But it's still an unstable tank, and that many fish can potentially produce a lot of ammonia. Overcrowding could also be an issue, but that depends more on the sizes and attitudes of the actual fish in question. (In other words, it could be fine in terms of overcrowding)

I have never quarantined before. I have always just dropped the fish into my reef and whatever happened, happened. This is my largest system (90gal) with my longest-living clowns, and I really wanted to try to keep them and the reef safe. Theyre the only inhabs other than inverts at the moment. I am a busy person, and I generally don't have a lot of time to contribute to long fish tasks, maybe 1 - 2 days a week. Unfortunately, due to my busy schedule, I wanted to knock it all out at once instead of keeping a large QT system running for multiple months. Seems I should have done it a bit differently.

There are lots of ways to assure your fishes health and this is one. I wouldn't write off this effort yet. :)

I do wonder how prudent it is to heavily treat if it is likely to stay as a chromis issue.

I would share this hesitation. And may be worth pointing out that plenty of people avoid chromis for this very reason. They are awesome fish in their own right, but they do not have good survival record in most tanks.

I think Chromis should be re-named The Highlander Fish....."There can be only one!" ...left from any school you add to your tank.

Some folks I know think that school sizes in home tanks are always too small to defray aggression enough, so eventually you always wind up with one left. I don't know that to be true, but it's consistent with LOTS of peoples' experiences with chromis.

 

[winxp_man]

So my original QT plan was to simply continue to increase copper levels slowly for the wrasse and blenny. Hold for 2-3 weeks. Then tank dose metro. After the responses, I have purchased Ruby Rally Pro. I plan to bathe when this arrives. Would it be a smart idea to also bathe all current fish in the QT with h2o2 at this point? How else should I alter my treatment plan?

I even QT’ed a 1” mandarine goby about two months ago. The tank ended up with pods in it. And that little guy cleared out many of them.

Two years ago was the last time I did slow copper increase. If the fish eats and looks good copper to 2.3-2.4ppm right away. As of now I have a Christmas wrasse, a naoko wrasse, two azure damsels, and another coral beauty. They are at week two I think last I checked in full copper right off the bat. All eating like pigs. No issues.

The issue is ionic copper that needs ramping up. Anime-chelated copper is less toxic, and again I’m on two year of putting fish directly into copper power with no issues because of copper. Dirty water and ammonia has been more of an issue than even ich or other diseases.

Changed up the protocol ways a bit, and now even ammonia is a thing of the past. So WC’s for clean water is all I worry about.

 

[Aqua Ultraviolet]

Uronema can be tough to deal with in QT. Keeping the fish isolated and closely monitoring its condition is important. Hope the treatment goes well.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Sure thing.

I definitely am guilty of not maintaining the cleanest of QTs. I have had intermittent bacterial blooms. I ensure the water is heavily aerated and I pay attention to all the fish to ensure no heavy breathing at rest and such.

I may have to step up my game, feed less and water change larger.

This may be more bacterial than uronema and reason to Quarantine.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I am quarantining some fish in a 40 gallon prior to going in my DT. Seeded from sponges and media from display. I originally added a flasher wrasse, tomini tang, some cardinals, and stripped blenny. I began the process of slowly increasing copper (copper power). Yesterday I added 5 chromis and 1 royal Gramma. All from the same tank at the fish shop. At the time of addition my copper level was 1.06 (Hanna). Drip acclimated for 45 minutes. Increased copper to 1.3 this morning. All were eating. No detectable ammonia. Today I have lost 4 chromis. All showing telltale red oval spots of uronema. It is what it is for the chromis. I am rather concerned for the rest of my fish though. I have researched the limited ability to treat and would rather this not kill my expensive wrasse or tang.
What level of concerned should I be? I have no formaldehyde for treatment. I have metro prazi and copper. I can get other things but it will be at least 2 days before it arrives.

Thank you in advance.

Lots of folks have already weighed in here, but I’ll give you my thoughts:

Sounds like you got a really bad group of chromis - they do appear to have Uronema, but infection rates in groups of chromis are usually lower than this and the mortality is more spread out.

Despite what you’ll read - internal Uronema is not treatable. You just cannot get the proper medication to the deep tissue location where the infection is at the correct amount in a fish that likely isn’t eating properly.

I’ve only had one confirmed case of internal Uronema infecting another fish that wasn’t carrying it.

Formalin or chloroquine works on Uronema that is external (like seen in seahorses and seadragons).

Here is a revision of my article on Uronema:
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/uronema-red-band-disease-hemdal.788/