Using bleach in display tank to kill ich?

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

When I went to bed last night everything was fine. I set the qt tank up yesterday. Brand new perfect water, perfect temp, air stone, 76F, 1.025, there wasn't even any meds In the tank yet...

Define "perfect", and describe how you acclimated the fish to the qt tank.

 

[Dav2996]

Unfortunately, you can't be sure that you have 'every disease in your tank' - unless you've sent a DNA analysis. And there are lots of variables that go into keeping that kind of tank - and for as many people who 'think' they have the key to this process - there are an equal number (or more) - who have lost their entire tank while thinking all of their fish are immune, and all it took was adding one more fish.

True but I have seen all kinds of weird stuff. It all disappeared, seen ich or velvet, seen plenty of swim bladder disease because they float weirdly, see flukes in their gills, seen parasites eat off by my cleaner shrimp, I have seen the fish eyes turn white then clear again, I have seen fin disease where their fins deteriorate they recovered but a bunch of their tails look shredded for a while. UV has kept me solid. Also people with the largest tanks like 300-800 and more get disease all the time. They can’t pull every fish. It’s impossible to even do that because of rocks and corals with 50 fish. My method is what they use and works great.

 

[reef2sanity]

Just keep it fallow (no fish, but inverts and coral are fine) for 76-80 days at regular tank temp and the ich will have died.

this is exactly how i switched from FOWLR to Reef Tank, left tank fallow for 4 months and concentrated on corals and water parameters then slowly started adding fish after 4 months (i waited extra wasnt planning on doing this again). was one of the best things i've done

 

[old salt reefer]

Bleach works just fine, and can be neutralized easy enough. However, you need to get the dose right, and you need to use bleach that is 5.25% sodium hypochlorite in water, no other surfactants, perfumes, etc. THAT is really tough to find now days! Seems like every bleach on the market has other crud in it, and they often hide that fact. Since these aren't "active ingredients" they don't have to be listed on the label.

Dr. Yanong lists 60 ppm for 24 hours as being effective, but I prefer to use 100 ppm. Here is his reference:

FA164/FA164: Cryptocaryon irritans Infections (Marine White Spot Disease) in Fish

University of Florida, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences Extension outreach is a partnership between state, federal, and county governments to provide scientific knowledge and expertise to the public. The University of Florida (UF), together with Florida A&M University (FAMU)...

edis.ifas.ufl.edu

Getting rid of the bleach includes rinsing the tank with freshwater and then using sodium thiosulfate until the rinse water shows no chlorine with a cheap DPD chlorine test (like for a pool). Once gone, there is NO residual issue with using bleach.

Jay

3 pages into this thread, was ready to get my shorts on as the b*!!$&^t was getting deep and someone posts the true answer. I've been into saltwater for over 5 decades and have used bleach for my aquariums in one way or another all 5 decades. Bleach is a oxidizer. It breaks down into oxygen(the part that kills everything) and salt. Back in the 1960s/70s live coral was "fun" to try to keep alive so we used dead coral as decorations(pretty ones like pipe organ that was red,etc.) and algae would grow all over it. Every couple of weeks you took the dead coral out of your tank and soaked it in bleach water for a few hours(killing the algae) rinsed it in tap water and put it back in your tank. This morning just like most I took my filter socks that had been soaking in bleach over night out, rinsed them in tap water, flung them to remove as much tap water as possible and then switched them out for the dirty ones in my tanks.
I see no problem with the OP using bleach to kill ick and EVERYTHING else in his tank. After 24 hours he could then use sodium thiosulfate to neutralize the bleach then run carbon. To get just bleach(without the perfume,etc.) go to the dollar store and buy the cheap stuff(it's cheap because all the other crap isn't in it) or the swimming pool store and buy liquid pool chlorine(same chemical as bleach just more concentrated)( solid pool chlorine is calcium hyochlorite-so not the same as bleach). After a week of of carbon the tank will be ready to add nitrifying bacteria and start the cycle all over again.
Also OP could add 10 to 20 bottles of hydrogen peroxide which breaks down into water and oxygen(the part that kills everything). This too would kill everything in his tank and be ready to add nitrifying bacteria to start cycle over again quicker than using bleach.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

this is exactly how i switched from FOWLR to Reef Tank, left tank fallow for 4 months and concentrated on corals and water parameters then slowly started adding fish after 4 months (i waited extra wasnt planning on doing this again). was one of the best things i've done

Cool! Although in the OP's case, the tank is new and probably not stable enough for most coral.

 

[vetteguy53081]

copper can get into live rock and become a problem later on if you get corals. Copper in QT tank not in display, you can also look into tank transfer method for fish in future if you dont want to treat with copper. Leave tank fallow and get water parameters all good and try again IMHO. If trying to get done quicker get a couple black mollies and put them in first, if theres Ick left in tank they should show it pretty quick

Yes- Im referring to QT tank

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

3 pages into this thread, was ready to get my shorts on as the b*!!$&^t was getting deep and someone posts the true answer. I've been into saltwater for over 5 decades and have used bleach for my aquariums in one way or another all 5 decades. Bleach is a oxidizer. It breaks down into oxygen(the part that kills everything) and salt. Back in the 1960s/70s live coral was "fun" to try to keep alive so we used dead coral as decorations(pretty ones like pipe organ that was red,etc.) and algae would grow all over it. Every couple of weeks you took the dead coral out of your tank and soaked it in bleach water for a few hours(killing the algae) rinsed it in tap water and put it back in your tank. This morning just like most I took my filter socks that had been soaking in bleach over night out, rinsed them in tap water, flung them to remove as much tap water as possible and then switched them out for the dirty ones in my tanks.
I see no problem with the OP using bleach to kill ick and EVERYTHING else in his tank. After 24 hours he could then use sodium thiosulfate to neutralize the bleach then run carbon. To get just bleach(without the perfume,etc.) go to the dollar store and buy the cheap stuff(it's cheap because all the other crap isn't in it) or the swimming pool store and buy liquid pool chlorine(same chemical as bleach just more concentrated)( solid pool chlorine is calcium hyochlorite-so not the same as bleach). After a week of of carbon the tank will be ready to add nitrifying bacteria and start the cycle all over again.
Also OP could add 10 to 20 bottles of hydrogen peroxide which breaks down into water and oxygen(the part that kills everything). This too would kill everything in his tank and be ready to add nitrifying bacteria to start cycle over again quicker than using bleach.

All good info. Definitely agree that a tiny bit of chlorine is not harmful, I rinse a lot of stuff in tap water and immediately put it back in the tank (skimmer, pumps, etc) Curious though, why carbon? Is that just in general or for a brand new tank like the OP's, which shouldn't have much in the way of die off...?

 

[old salt reefer]

All good info. Definitely agree that a tiny bit of chlorine is not harmful, I rinse a lot of stuff in tap water and immediately put it back in the tank (skimmer, pumps, etc) Curious though, why carbon? Is that just in general or for a brand new tank like the OP's, which shouldn't have much in the way of die off...?

Just to be on the safe side. That's just me.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Just to be on the safe side. That's just me.

Nothing wrong with that

 

[MnFish1]

Why not 45 days or longer as others have recommended? While fish disease is not my forte, rushing is never a good idea with aquaria, especially with disease.

Exactly.

The research that has been done on this - suggest that it is a very very small percentage of cysts - that survive up to 76 days. With the temperature - even fewer (the lower the temp - the longer they live). @Jay Hemdal (who I would consider an 'expert' - has said a minimum of 30 days. I'm not sure whether there is research to show that 86 vs 78 - how long a fallow period should last. @Jay Hemdal

PS- the research done by Burgess is not directly applicable (the 76 day fallow period) - to a tropical reef tank. Additionally - the recent finding that anaerobic areas in a tank can allow cysts to last for much longer is also basically ignored by the majority of reefers

 

[MnFish1]

True but I have seen all kinds of weird stuff. It all disappeared, seen ich or velvet, seen plenty of swim bladder disease because they float weirdly, see flukes in their gills, seen parasites eat off by my cleaner shrimp, I have seen the fish eyes turn white then clear again, I have seen fin disease where their fins deteriorate they recovered but a bunch of their tails look shredded for a while. UV has kept me solid. Also people with the largest tanks like 300-800 and more get disease all the time. They can’t pull every fish. It’s impossible to even do that because of rocks and corals with 50 fish. My method is what they use and works great.

The misconception (IMHO) is kind of like confirmation bias: You see a picture of an 'immune tank' and say wow that looks great person xxxxxxxxx must be right. The problem is - whether it's coral/fish/anemones - the fact is kind of survival of the fittest again IMO. Just curious - are you telling me that you have never had a fish die? If so - from what (besides jumping, out). The losses are minimized often - but the gains are trumpeted.

 

[MnFish1]

I checked the fish this morning. The royale Gramma I got yesterday was dead. The new clown I got his two side fins are very Lacey, like there's no webbing between the "fingers" and the clown that survived the ich out break in my display tank has long white strings from one of his fins and is swimming lethargically...

When I went to bed last night everything was fine. I set the qt tank up yesterday. Brand new perfect water, perfect temp, air stone, 76F, 1.025, there wasn't even any meds In the tank yet...

In 8 hours I seemed to have killed $215 worth of fish with no obvious cause.

My guess it was ammonia 'burns' - and relates to your acclimation process - OR - the shipper sent you bad fish. I would contact them.

 

[Dav2996]

The misconception (IMHO) is kind of like confirmation bias: You see a picture of an 'immune tank' and say wow that looks great person xxxxxxxxx must be right. The problem is - whether it's coral/fish/anemones - the fact is kind of survival of the fittest again IMO. Just curious - are you telling me that you have never had a fish die? If so - from what (besides jumping, out). The losses are minimized often - but the gains are trumpeted.

I had 1 fish die from getting wedged in the rock and got stuck. Another fish died in the overflow one time. I also lost one fish carbon dosing at night and it lowered the oxygen too much.

 

[Dav2996]

My guess it was ammonia 'burns' - and relates to your acclimation process - OR - the shipper sent you bad fish. I would contact them.

I have had fish almost kill each other over territory but yea that is it.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

The research that has been done on this - suggest that it is a very very small percentage of cysts - that survive up to 76 days. With the temperature - even fewer (the lower the temp - the longer they live). @Jay Hemdal (who I would consider an 'expert' - has said a minimum of 30 days. I'm not sure whether there is research to show that 86 vs 78 - how long a fallow period should last. @Jay Hemdal

PS- the research done by Burgess is not directly applicable (the 76 day fallow period) - to a tropical reef tank. Additionally - the recent finding that anaerobic areas in a tank can allow cysts to last for much longer is also basically ignored by the majority of reefers

Wait - I never said a fallow period of 30 days was appropriate. I used to do that back in the early 1980's but at 86 or 87 degrees F. We called it "cooking ich". What I did was present information that the 76 day time frame is also invalid - it was done at low temperatures, in a petri dish, in a xeric culture. Even the researcher who did that study said that it was not a real world scenario. The 45 days at 81 F. time frame seems to work fine.

The 45 days discussion is here:

45 Day Fallow periods

I've been doing some research into the "76 day fallow period". I never heard of that prior to coming to Reef2Reef this past summer. I had always used 32 days as the maximum time for a tomont to remain viable under tropical conditions, and then I would round up to 45 days to help ensure that...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[MnFish1]

Wait - I never said a fallow period of 30 days was appropriate. I used to do that back in the early 1980's but at 86 or 87 degrees F. We called it "cooking ich". What I did was present information that the 76 day time frame is also invalid - it was done at low temperatures, in a petri dish, in a xeric culture. Even the researcher who did that study said that it was not a real world scenario. The 45 days at 81 F. time frame seems to work fine.

The 45 days discussion is here:

45 Day Fallow periods

I've been doing some research into the "76 day fallow period". I never heard of that prior to coming to Reef2Reef this past summer. I had always used 32 days as the maximum time for a tomont to remain viable under tropical conditions, and then I would round up to 45 days to help ensure that...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

I may very well be confused between what you said about QT times - as compared to fallow. And I apologize.

 

[MnFish1]

I may very well be confused between what you said about QT times - as compared to fallow. And I apologize.

Mea Culpa

 

[MnFish1]

I have had fish almost kill each other over territory but yea that is it.

50 percent of people - give or take - do no QT procedure of any type on this site. So - it's not a question that's going to be answered definitively here. Go with the science - not the anecdote - IMHO - and IMHO - the science on QT is firm

 

[MnFish1]

Wait - I never said a fallow period of 30 days was appropriate. I used to do that back in the early 1980's but at 86 or 87 degrees F. We called it "cooking ich". What I did was present information that the 76 day time frame is also invalid - it was done at low temperatures, in a petri dish, in a xeric culture. Even the researcher who did that study said that it was not a real world scenario. The 45 days at 81 F. time frame seems to work fine.

The 45 days discussion is here:

45 Day Fallow periods

I've been doing some research into the "76 day fallow period". I never heard of that prior to coming to Reef2Reef this past summer. I had always used 32 days as the maximum time for a tomont to remain viable under tropical conditions, and then I would round up to 45 days to help ensure that...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

In my defense - totally self-serving I did say a MINIMUM of 30 days

 

[bnord]

Thanks for all the input everyone!

I got a new clown to replace the one that didn't make it and I have started a copper / general cure regimen in QT.

I upped the display tank temp to 87F and I will keep it there for 30 days.

Will keep everyone posted

Best of luck bud!