Using ground probes in aquariums

[siggy]

@Brew12 Hey great thread, i often wondered about all the talk of stray voltage around here. In an earlier post you mentioned a reduced treat in a freshwater systems. In ultra Pure water there is nothing to conduct electricity it's the contaminants or minerals that conduct. But Water flow through Plastic piping/tubing creates friction which causes the plastics to give up electrons and can build to lethal levels and why NEC Greatly expanded ARTICLE #680 Pools, Fountains, and Similar ( decorative pools ) specifically subsection 680.26 7C Pool Water, it goes on to say the water itself must be bonded with a minimum of conductive surface area of 9"squared. It's my understanding that PVC is one of the worst culprits in shedding Electrons ( Master licensing instructor ) and may explain why some see problems while others don't . I see a lot of pvc in the Build threads. Thanks for the link for the titanium ground probe, I wondered how to ground without using a exposed copper or zinc anode.

 

[RamsReef]

Yes, pvc is fun... thats why your central vac will have a bond wire running threw it.

Also I have built a vandegraph using it.

 

[jgvergo]

Wow. I am really surprised that the issue of PVC building up a charge has not come up before this. I did a little research and it is indeed a real possibility. Even though PVC is not conductive, it CAN hold a charge! Rubbing a balloon against your shirt to cause a static electricity build up is a common example of this phenomenon. Regardless, ground your system with a probe!!! There are many ways to die. Don't let this be the way you go!

 

[Brew12]

The static built up in PVC can reach very high voltages. I wouldn't expect it to be a personal safety hazard except in very remote sumps or water change systems. A ground probe reduces all risk but even a small amount of salt creep would reduce the threat of PVC related shock issues.

 

[tdileo]

I have heard about grounding probes in the aquarium before but thought it wasn't anything important and I know many people who ran saltwater systems for years without issues. I want to be safe since I've put a lot of money into my tank and it would suck to lose it all from an accident so I will be purchasing a Seneye soon and figure a grounding probe would also be a good purchase after reading this. Is there a certain one you would reccomend?

 

[Brew12]

I have heard about grounding probes in the aquarium before but thought it wasn't anything important and I know many people who ran saltwater systems for years without issues. I want to be safe since I've put a lot of money into my tank and it would suck to lose it all from an accident so I will be purchasing a Seneye soon and figure a grounding probe would also be a good purchase after reading this. Is there a certain one you would reccomend?

Nope. They are so simple that the brand doesn't matter imo. Just make sure the probe itself is titanium coated and you should be fine.

 

[RamsReef]

Wow. I am really surprised that the issue of PVC building up a charge has not come up before this. I did a little research and it is indeed a real possibility. Even though PVC is not conductive, it CAN hold a charge! Rubbing a balloon against your shirt to cause a static electricity build up is a common example of this phenomenon. Regardless, ground your system with a probe!!! There are many ways to die. Don't let this be the way you go!

Yes but in salt water I highly doubt PVC will build up any charge, as salt water is an excellent conductor, provided you do have a ground probe and somewhere for it to go...
I would suspect you would feel the discharge when you put your hand in the tank, prior to it damaging any equipment though, as those who have used a shopvac will attest to :O

 

[siggy]

The static built up in PVC can reach very high voltages. I wouldn't expect it to be a personal safety hazard except in very remote sumps or water change systems. A ground probe reduces all risk but even a small amount of salt creep would reduce the threat of PVC related shock issues.

I realize the risk in a such small systems would be negligible but I was thinking more about people blaming stray voltages on poor coral growth or death of a fish
and now that i think about it Probe degradation thru electrolysis may also benefit from proper grounding as well as eliminating noise in electronics.

 

[RamsReef]

I realize the risk in a such small systems would be negligible but I was thinking more about people blaming stray voltages on poor coral growth or death of a fish
and now that i think about it Probe degradation thru electrolysis may also benefit from proper grounding as well as eliminating noise in electronics.

If you've ever worked at a large industrial site, people always blame the electricians first, haha. Voodoo

 

[siggy]

if you've ever worked at a large industrial site, people always blame the electricians first, haha. Voodoo

We call it FM F.......ing magic

 

[Charterreefer]

Why is it that some people refuse to put a grounding probe in their aquarium? I've seen many arguments against using them, some of which are based on what I believe to be bad information. I want to make the case for why every aquarium should have a grounding probe installed.
We have these beautiful aquariums full of salt water into which we place electrically operated equipment. Everyone has heard the phrase "Water and electricity don't mix" and it is especially true of salt water. Yet this doesn't have to be dangerous and a ground probe is key to making this safe.

An electrical shock occurs when current flows through a person. There are three main factors that impact the severity of the shock. The amount of current flowing through the person, the length of time they are being shocked, and the path the current takes through the body. For a shock to occur a person must be touching an energized conductor and a source to ground. The glass and acrylic most aquariums are made from are excellent insulators. If a pump or heater develops a fault in the salt water, it will raise all of the water in the aquarium to the same voltage as is available at the fault, typically close to 115V. If you are touching the metal housing of a light fixture or standing on wet concrete and touch the water, you become the best path for the current to take to get to ground. These shocks are most likely to take the most dangerous path, which is through our heart. It will go into the hand, through the heart, and either out the opposite hand or down through our legs. This is one way the ground probe keeps us safe. Electricity always takes the lowest resistance path to ground. The human body does have some resistance so a properly maintained ground plug will always offer a lower resistance path to ground.

I would also make the argument that the use of a ground plug is important to the health of our marine fish, but not because of a risk of electrical shock. Scientists use electro-fishing techniques to collect or count fish populations by shocking fish. Electric eels hunt prey by shocking them with electricity. So why do I say marine fish are not at risk for being shocked? They live in salt water. Electric eels are a fresh water species and electro-fishing only works fresh water. In a fresh water environment the fish is more conductive than the water just like people are more conductive than air. You cannot shock a marine fish while it is in salt water since the water is more conductive than the fish. This doesn't mean that marine fish aren't affected by electricity.

It is a generalization to say that all of the salt water is at the same voltage in our aquariums. In reality, small differences in potential can exist within the water. Eddy currents of water will cause a difference in voltage. There will be a difference in potential caused by any air bubbles that may touch a fish. While these may not cause shocks, it can cause a serious irritation across the surface of the fish. I would also point out that you do not need to have an electrical fault to have a harmful voltage in your aquarium. Any energized cord either running in the water or along the outside of the tank will create a voltage in the tank using a process called induction. This is why many people see a voltage in their aquariums without having a GFCI breaker trip. A ground probe will prevent any voltage from building up in the aquarium water, protecting our fish from these small voltage differences.

Grounding probes also protect our tank from another problem that is much harder to see and correct. If you have an electrical fault in your tank, there is a high probability that you have exposed copper in your system. This copper will corrode in salt water and the corrosion is accelerated when impacted by electricity. Even if you use a GFCI, the circuit will not trip on a fault until you have a source to ground. A ground probe will immediately provide that path to ground. If you do not have a ground probe installed, you could be leaching copper into your system for days or longer until a path to ground from your water is established.

The one argument against using ground probes I cannot counter is that it could provide a heat source during an electrical fault. If you have an electrical fault in a very narrow resistance range, and do not use GFCI protection, it can act like a heater. I know I wouldn't risk the safety of my family and friends in an effort to avoid this one scenario. I hope after reading this you won't either.

I just put a ground probe in my reef tank after reading your article. Been meaning to put one in for a long time, however, after I did my gfci circuit shut off the tank while I was out. Never had that happen in all the years it was running until the ground probe went into the water. What do you think could be happening?

 

[RamsReef]

I just put a ground probe in my reef tank after reading your article. Been meaning to put one in for a long time, however, after I did my gfci circuit shut off the tank while I was out. Never had that happen in all the years it was running until the ground probe went into the water. What do you think could be happening?

Ha, well your probe just fixed your problem.

Unplug everything aside from the probe, reset the socket, plug things in one at a time,

Find your failed component

Replace your failed component

 

[Brew12]

I just put a ground probe in my reef tank after reading your article. Been meaning to put one in for a long time, however, after I did my gfci circuit shut off the tank while I was out. Never had that happen in all the years it was running until the ground probe went into the water. What do you think could be happening?

Ha, well your probe just fixed your problem.

Well, I'm not sure that it fixed the problem, but it did let you know that you have a problem.

Since it didn't trip immediately I would suspect a failed heater.

 

[Charterreefer]

I hope that will work. The probe was on the tank for a couple of days before the tank shut down. Must be a small current leak?

 

[jasonrusso]

Any Hydor powerheads? I had a crack in one.

Heater is also suspect because it is one of the only components that cycles

 

[Brew12]

I hope that will work. The probe was on the tank for a couple of days before the tank shut down. Must be a small current leak?

I'm a big fan of having something like this to help troubleshoot.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Shock-Bust...-Single-to-Single-Yellow-GFCI-Adapter/1135923

You can get them from most hardware stores.

Finding intermittent faults can be frustrating. Using something like the portable GFCI would allow you to split your equipment and put some on your normal GFCI and put some on this unit. When one or the other trips again you can narrow down the possible culprit.

 

[Charterreefer]

I'm a big fan of having something like this to help troubleshoot.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Shock-Bust...-Single-to-Single-Yellow-GFCI-Adapter/1135923

You can get them from most hardware stores.

Finding intermittent faults can be frustrating. Using something like the portable GFCI would allow you to split your equipment and put some on your normal GFCI and put some on this unit. When one or the other trips again you can narrow down the possible culprit.

I found the source! Very interesting. It was actually coming from the a 5 gallon skimmate bucket via the tube that carries the skimmate from the skimmer to the bucket! I have an SOS liquid sensor that uses two electrodes to sense when the water level is touching them (indicating a high water level). Apparently there is normally a slight voltage/current between them. When the water rises it completes the circuit. It's a wet environment and they must ground out slightly from just sitting in there. I fixed the problem by shortening the skimmate tube so it's no longer touching the skimmate bucket, just over it. No more current in tank.

 

[Brew12]

I found the source! Very interesting. It was actually coming from the a 5 gallon skimmate bucket via the tube that carries the skimmate from the skimmer to the bucket! I have an SOS liquid sensor that uses two electrodes to sense when the water level is touching them (indicating a high water level). Apparently there is normally a slight voltage/current between them. When the water rises it completes the circuit. It's a wet environment and they must ground out slightly from just sitting in there. I fixed the problem by shortening the skimmate tube so it's no longer touching the skimmate bucket, just over it. No more current in tank.

Glad you found it, I wouldn't have guessed that one correctly!

 

[linus.chan]

Glad you appreciate the post!

One ground probe is enough to protect the entire system as long as the return pump is running. I only run with one, and it is in my sump. If everything in the system is on GFCI I wouldn't bother installing more than one. If you have an equipment failure, it will trip the GFCI and protect everything. If you don't run with everything on GFCI then I would consider installing one in each connected tank that has electrical equipment for personal safety reasons.

I want to make sure I understand. I have 2 gfci outlets that I use for my aquarium equipment. They are about 6 feet away from each other and use powerstrips.

I have plugged one titanium grounding probe to one of the gfci outlets.

If a fault occurs will both gfci s trip? Or just the one where the fault is coming from, or the one where the probe is plugged into?

 

[Brew12]

I want to make sure I understand. I have 2 gfci outlets that I use for my aquarium equipment. They are about 6 feet away from each other and use powerstrips.

I have plugged one titanium grounding probe to one of the gfci outlets.

If a fault occurs will both gfci s trip? Or just the one where the fault is coming from, or the one where the probe is plugged into?

Only the one the fault is coming from will trip.

You could plug the ground probe into your neighbors house using an extension cord and both of your GFCI's would still work properly.