Very elevated Tin levels

[reefer4816]

I got my Triton test back and my tin levels are very high!

What could be causing this? And how bad is this number?

Tank is 5 months old, jaebo return pump, jaebo wave maker, mp40, ati 8 bulb fixture, via aqua heater, ink bird temperature controller, marinepure blocks, skimmer by octo-whatever.

I will be adding poly filter for now

 

[madweazl]

I had a fitting (ball valve to the carbon reactor) with a screw I didn't see for months in my sump that I attribute to the tin issue I was having. After removal, it went down (to zero) with my regularly scheduled water changes.

 

[daelie]

I had a reading of 30 and I started losing a bunch of acros. LPS, softies, and other sps like montis didn't care too much. Once I took care of it, my acros started growing again. Mine was from the bracket holding my lights on my tank. So don't necessarily look for something in the water, it could be adjacent as well.

FWIW, polyfilter did nothing for me. TLF Metasorb actually worked at pulling them out, but regular water changes once you find the source will also work. I saw on another thread someone used Seachem's Cuprisorb to get it out of the water, saying it worked for him, but I've personally never tried it to comment.

 

[revhtree]

I also showed elevated (high) Tin readings with my Triton Test.

 

[reefer4816]

I also showed elevated (high) Tin readings with my Triton Test.

What was the number? Did you find a cause or a way to remove from the water?

 

[thabizness]

I had high tin also. I found that I had a couple of rusted vortech magnets when I went looking. I just ordered the retest.

 

[madweazl]

Triton results:

July
Aluminum - 5.279
Tin - 5.94
Lithium - 589

August
Aluminum - 3.482 (20g water change)
Tin - 3.82 (20g water change)
Lithium - 583 (20g water change)

November
Aluminum - 2.163
Tin - 0 (found a ball valve in the sump shortly after the Aug results that had a metal screw and removed it)
Lithium - 383 (used a 50g bag of Live Aquaria's salt mix for the last three water changes vice Reef Crystals that I've used exclusively prior to this)

 

[cmcoker]

I've also seen elevated tin from my ATI ICP results.
http://lab.atiaquaristik.com/share/ec254aed3ad8f80cf5e7

Tin 5.46ug/L
Aluminum 1.61ug/L (not really too concerned about this)

I have also had unhappy coral, they perk up after water change then start looking more unhappy the closer it gets to the next water change. My sample was pulled in water change day to see what could be accumulating.
I plan to pull my pumps, return, skimmer this weekend and check everything over. Also wondering if the diy screen kit could be contributing.. Gonna order some metasorb or cuprisorb to give a try in the mean time.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The aluminum is no concern, and may not even be a real measurement as opposed to noise.

That tin level may also not be a concern. It's hard to know exactly what levels can be OK since tin and other trace elements can take many forms, but I wouldn't be convinced it is the issue.

 

[reefer4816]

The aluminum is no concern, and may not even be a real measurement as opposed to noise.

That tin level may also not be a concern. It's hard to know exactly what levels can be OK since tin and other trace elements can take many forms, but I wouldn't be convinced it is the issue.

Thanks for the reply Randy!

Can you explain a little more what you mean by tin and other trade elements can take many forms?

You don’t know of a level of tin being toxic?

 

[cmcoker]

The aluminum is no concern, and may not even be a real measurement as opposed to noise.

That tin level may also not be a concern. It's hard to know exactly what levels can be OK since tin and other trace elements can take many forms, but I wouldn't be convinced it is the issue.

I'm not convinced either about tin or al, but figure if I put some Metasorb in and my corals quit looking mad when it's time for a water change, then maybe I will feel more like the tin is an issue. I have a favia that is my canary, it's plump and happy after a water change, then gets sunken and shriveled and by the time for a water change its mouths are gaping open.. So I feel something is going on, is it something I can't test? maybe, probably ...but I don't want everything in there to croak so gotta try something
OP I'll follow up if metasorb helps my tank, maybe it could help yours too.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for the reply Randy!

Can you explain a little more what you mean by tin and other trade elements can take many forms?

You don’t know of a level of tin being toxic?

Correct, one cannot say what level of tin is toxic without knowing what form it is in.

Just like if you detect nitrogen in the water, you cannot know what level is "toxic" without knowing if that nitrogen is in ammonia, nitrate, an amino acid, N2, or something else.

Tin also exists in many forms. Wholly inorganic forms include Sn (metal), Sn++, and Sn++++ forms. In normal seawater, tin is primarily present as Sn(OH)4.

These inorganic forms can bind (be chelated) to organics naturally present in aquarium water, such as humic acids, and this binding to organics can reduce their bioavailability and hence their toxicity.

There are also organic forms of tin, where there is a direct covalent bond between the tin atom and at least one carbon atom. The tin used to heat stabilize PVC is this type, but there are a number of different chemicals used (see some examples below in the structure) and they will change over time into other structures. The toxicity of any one of these depends entirely on the exact structure.

Some organotin compounds used in PVC:

 

[DHill6]

Also received high tin result from Triton 23.90 very high. New Red Sea Reefer 170, using TM Pro salt, weekly 4 g water changes. Everything is new Nyos skimmer, 2 mp10's, 2 heaters, sicce silent pump. Tank is fed reefroids once weekly, RedSea Reef Energy @ 1 mg. once weekly, this seems to be too much according to Triton test. One clownfish who eats LRS frozen exclusively. I did treat with Vibrant twice before sending the test out, took care of the gha that was showing up. I didn't rinse the vials three times only twice before sealing, my mistake. I've treated with Panta Lith. Corals look amazing, very colorful and full, mainly LPS with JF HW acros. Rocks are Real Reef Rocks that were sent wet from the baby clownfish tanks at Pacific East Aquaculture.

 

[thabizness]

I have also had high tin on Triton tests. I have not tested high for any other metals. My tank is a 3 year old 180g reef. I did find rusted vortech pumps, bad heaters, and the cord on the skimmer pump was frayed when I went looking for causes.

I just completed a 3 day detox so we will see if it removes tin.

 

[DHill6]

Above should have read 1 ml of Reef Energy not 1 mg

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Someone recently pointed out it might even be the glass since float glass is typically floated on molten tin.

 

[tastyfish]

Great info and thread. I agree from more of a layman's point of view with Randy (having not delved into chemistry for a number of years).

However we can use some anecdotal evidence which seems to correlate on likely sources of tin within the aquarium. PVC stabilisers and plasticisers are at the top of my list having experienced high tin levels after adding PVC flexible pipework.

In a brand new tank, another source could be float glass - despite washing my tank down with RO and a tap water test fill, I still experienced very high tin levels when starting up, but given it was new glass and new PVC, the exact source is difficult to prove.

When researching, I found it interesting that stabilisers and plasticisers in the US and Europe differ. Certainly we have no idea what form the tin is in, in our aquarium as an ICP OES will only show the isotopes and not the compounds they are in. http://www.pvc.org/en/p/organotin-stabilisers. This may partially explain why some tanks have been fine with tin at 35ug/l (6000ppm) and others (like mine) have SPS wipe outs with levels as low as 6ug/l. In my case, I also believe that the high levels of phosphates and low NO3 play a role. Healthy colonies may be less susceptible than stressed out frags.

PVC can also be a source of Zinc, with Zinc based plasticisers and stablisers being used. Although anecdotally, it would appear Zinc is more readily used by coral than Tin (There's an interesting talk by Ehsan Dashti where he covers some of this on YouTube which is worth a watch).

 

[Christoph]

Hello everyone,

Tin from float glass can be a main issue in relatively new tanks. Afaik the "tin side" of the glass is visible in UV light (i would guess UV-A), and a good tank builder would always turn the tin-side outwards. This is of course not possible with glass that creates chambers within the sump.

To remove tin from glass (before starting a reef tank) i would give the glass a good rinse/swipe with citric acid in water or with vinegar.

As to the chemical forms of tin, organotin compounds are not among the very stable molecules. I would expect any organotin to be readily metabolized/hydrolized and that the tin would end up in inorganic form within the water column quickly. There much (anecdotal) evidence that people had problems with SPS (especially acropora) and high tin levels.

Best regards from Vienna,
Christoph

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for the input, guys.

 

[Trevor40]

I have tin levels around 7ppm and all the acros in my tank seem colorful still but with little polyp extension. The tank is 4 month running so I assume it is from the glass and pvc. I am hoping that water changes bring it down to 0 over the next 6 weeks.