Vodka any better than ethanol?

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

FWIW, I think one needs to be careful to not claim that the full set of effects will be the same for different organic molecules dosed because different organisms use them. Acetate is extremely widely taken up, including by corals and sponges. Ethanol may possibly be less so.

We don’t really have much info or discussion on the effects of, say, vinegar on growth rates of large organisms. It’s always about bacteria. But that’s not a reason to assume it is unimportant.

 

[Slocke]

It has to do with the fact that the vinegar pH drop happens instantly on dosing and is apparent to everyone while the vodka pH lowering is spread out over many hours, but at the end of the day to overall pH effect is nearly identical since the end products (CO2 and water) are exactly identical.

If vinegar dosing itself is spread out, one is likely to observe very similar pH profiles, but if you do once a day dosing, vinegar will give a lower pH during the spike downward.

So when in solution the pH is lower for vinegar but once they are both consumed the overall effect on pH is equal?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

So when in solution the pH is lower for vinegar but once they are both consumed the overall effect on pH is equal?

Yes, but bear in mind the pH is a dynamic thing relating strongly to aeration. Constant small tweaks in pH downward may go entirely unnoticed, while a sudden large swing down in notably. If both end entirely as CO2, and the same amount of CO2, then the long term effect must be the same.

24 h after dosing, the pH using an equimolar dosing of acetic acid may actually give a tiny bit higher pH than vodka because aeration has had longer to recover the original pH.

That said, I think the effects of both on pH are going to be largely unnoticed if dosing is spread out and aeration is normal or better.

 

[Slocke]

Yes, but bear in mind the pH is a dynamic thing relating strongly to aeration. Constant small tweaks in pH downward may go entirely unnoticed, while a sudden large swing down in notably. If both end entirely as CO2, and the same amount of CO2, then the long term effect must be the same.

24 h after dosing, the pH using an equimolar dosing of acetic acid may actually give a tiny bit higher pH than vodka because aeration has had longer to recover the original pH.

That said, I think the effects of both on pH are going to be largely unnoticed if dosing is spread out and aeration is normal or better.

Thanks!

 

[KTTX]

So RedSea NoPox could be replaced with Vinegar and achieve similar results?

 

[Miami Reef]

So RedSea NoPox could be replaced with Vinegar and achieve similar results?

If the goal is lowering nutrients, you can replace NOPOX with vinegar, vodka, or a mixture of both.

 

[Miami Reef]

Here’s a simple NOPOX recipe. It basically replicates it, since the main ingredient in NOPOX is vinegar and vodka.

This is the rough recipe:

"Mix one part vinegar to one half part vodka and one half part water. If you want to get even closer, add a little more vodka and a little less water."

 

[Slocke]

Yes, but bear in mind the pH is a dynamic thing relating strongly to aeration. Constant small tweaks in pH downward may go entirely unnoticed, while a sudden large swing down in notably. If both end entirely as CO2, and the same amount of CO2, then the long term effect must be the same.

24 h after dosing, the pH using an equimolar dosing of acetic acid may actually give a tiny bit higher pH than vodka because aeration has had longer to recover the original pH.

That said, I think the effects of both on pH are going to be largely unnoticed if dosing is spread out and aeration is normal or better.

Wanted to ask another question about this as a hypothetical. So both molecules eventually react to form the same amount of CO2 per molecule but the acetic acid does it in two steps.
So I'm presuming that if this carbon is feeding bacteria the second reaction for acetic acid and the only step for ethanol is bacteria respiration?
Does that mean, theoretically, that for every reduction in pH vodka is twice as effective at feeding the bacteria?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Wanted to ask another question about this as a hypothetical. So both molecules eventually react to form the same amount of CO2 per molecule but the acetic acid does it in two steps.
So I'm presuming that if this carbon is feeding bacteria the second reaction for acetic acid and the only step for ethanol is bacteria respiration?
Does that mean, theoretically, that for every reduction in pH vodka is twice as effective at feeding the bacteria?

Some of the carbon in any organic consumed also ends up organism tissue. Just want to make sure that’s understood.

When you say the second step for acetic acid, are you meaning the first is release of H+?

I do not know where the basis of thinking vodka is exactly twice as effective comes from, but there is more energy in ethanol (though notice as much) than acetic acid because acetic acid is already more oxidized than is ethanol.

 

[Slocke]

Some of the carbon in any organic consumed also ends up organism tissue. Just want to make sure that’s understood.

When you say the second step for acetic acid, are you meaning the first is release of H+?

I do not know where the basis of thinking vodka is exactly twice as effective comes from, but there is more energy in ethanol (though notice as much) than acetic acid because acetic acid is already more oxidized than is ethanol.

I'm probably completely wrong. I was thinking that the release initial release of H+ was all due to just a simple reaction with the water itself and that used up half of the carbon. Then the other half was converted to CO2 via consumption of the carbon by the bacteria being grown.

Does that make sense??

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I'm probably completely wrong. I was thinking that the release initial release of H+ was all due to just a simple reaction with the water itself and that used up half of the carbon. Then the other half was converted to CO2 via consumption of the carbon by the bacteria being grown.

Does that make sense??

It makes sense, but is not correct. The release of the proton does not change the metabolic/chemical energy present.

 

[Slocke]

It makes sense, but is not correct. The release of the proton does not change the metabolic/chemical energy present.

Good to know
Thanks

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

This has a lot more discussion:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/reef-chemistry-question-of-the-day.172883/