Vodka dosing

[kobe6710]

I am contemplating beginning vodka dosing, as I make trips quite frequently and I believe my auto feeder (feeding pellets) has been causing my phosphates to spike occasionally.

My only concern is I am gone for days at a time, and I do not have a dosing pump. I am looking into getting one, but is dosing vodka in the meantime unrealistic? For example, I would be dosing every day for 3-5 days out of the week, and sometimes may go up to 5 days without dosing.

Furthermore, is weekly dosing an option to keep consistent values or am I better off just waiting until I purchase a dosing pump? Currently looking for one at a good value. Thanks in advance.

 

[rishma]

Vodka dosing is not a great solution for your phosphates. It’s quite effective on nitrates but I’ve found that dosing a nitrogen source is needed for a carbon source to have a meaningful effect on phosphates.

 

[FrugalReeferJon]

Just my 2 cents but I’ve always been told that vodka dosing targets nitrates more than it does phosphates. Also, every time I’ve tried carbon dosing in the past my tank eventually ended up getting dinos which is why I don’t dose vodka anymore. If you’re going to try it you need to keep an eye on your nitrate and phosphate levels like a hawk.

 

[kobe6710]

Vodka dosing is not a great solution for your phosphates. It’s quite effective on nitrates but I’ve found that dosing a nitrogen source is needed for a carbon source to have a meaningful effect on phosphates.

Which cost effective nitrogen sources would you recommend?

 

[kobe6710]

Just my 2 cents but I’ve always been told that vodka dosing targets nitrates more than it does phosphates. Also, every time I’ve tried carbon dosing in the past my tank eventually ended up getting dinos which is why I don’t dose vodka anymore. If you’re going to try it you need to keep an eye on your nitrate and phosphate levels like a hawk.

Got it thanks, think I may just keep the vodka to myself

 

[Fish Fan]

What is the age of your tank, and what rock did you start with? There's an interplay of the rock and phosphate, and new tanks can be chronically high or low for phosphate until an equilibrium is reached. In my most recent tank, I have been dosing phosphate to bring it up from zero. You may be seeing an opposite effect.

 

[rishma]

Which cost effective nitrogen sources would you recommend?

Do you know your nitrate?

Ammonium bicarbonate is very inexpensive and effective DIY for this purpose. There is a thread for it in the forum.

Dosing nitrogen for the purpose of using a carbon source for phosphate reduction is quite complex. It’s works, but it’s experimental IMO.

 

[kobe6710]

What is the age of your tank, and what rock did you start with? There's an interplay of the rock and phosphate, and new tanks can be chronically high or low for phosphate until an equilibrium is reached. In my most recent tank, I have been dosing phosphate to bring it up from zero. You may be seeing an opposite effect.

Tank is almost 7 months old, I started with CaribSea dry live rock- which I have seemed to notice was a mistake after research. Do these rocks leak phosphates over time or is that a misconception?

 

[kobe6710]

Which cost effective nitrogen sources would you recommend?

Do you know your nitrate?

Ammonium bicarbonate is very inexpensive and effective DIY for this purpose. There is a thread for it in the forum.

Dosing nitrogen for the purpose of using a carbon source for phosphate reduction is quite complex. It’s works, but it’s experimental IMO.

Nitrate has been steadily between 10-15 ppm, it spiked to 30 as my phosphates rose while I was away. I think it’s due to my auto feeder, trying to get the perfect feeding dialed in.

Is the chemical you’re speaking of NoPox? I saw a video from an online reefer claiming 70% vinegar and 30% vodka would suffice, is this true?

 

[rishma]

Nitrate has been steadily between 10-15 ppm, it spiked to 30 as my phosphates rose while I was away. I think it’s due to my auto feeder, trying to get the perfect feeding dialed in.

Is the chemical you’re speaking of NoPox? I saw a video from an online reefer claiming 70% vinegar and 30% vodka would suffice, is this true?

No. NoPOX is just vodka and vinegar mixed. It will work the same way. It reduces nitrates quite well, but phosphates less effectively.

The bacterial growth you get dosing a carbon source consumes nitrates and a little phosphate. Also your rock is a huge reservoir of phosphates so getting the phosphate reduction in the water through bacterial growth and removal is more challenging.

Most people observe there nitrates get too low before seeing effective phosphate reduction. That’s why dosing a nitrogen source can keep things headed in the right direction but it’s not a set and forget approach.

 

[kobe6710]

Nitrate has been steadily between 10-15 ppm, it spiked to 30 as my phosphates rose while I was away. I think it’s due to my auto feeder, trying to get the perfect feeding dialed in.

Is the chemical you’re speaking of NoPox? I saw a video from an online reefer claiming 70% vinegar and 30% vodka would suffice, is this true?

No. NoPOX is just vodka and vinegar mixed. It will work the same way. It reduces nitrates quite well, but phosphates less effectively.

The bacterial growth you get dosing a carbon source consumes nitrates and a little phosphate. Also your rock is a huge reservoir of phosphates so getting the phosphate reduction in the water through bacterial growth and removal is more challenging.

Most people observe there nitrates get too low before seeing effective phosphate reduction. That’s why dosing a nitrogen source can keep things headed in the right direction but it’s not a set and forget approach.

Ah I see sorry I misunderstood, I will research the ammonium bicarbonate thank you very much!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ah I see sorry I misunderstood, I will research the ammonium bicarbonate thank you very much!

This is a good discussion of ammonium bicarbonate dosing:

DIY Ammonia dosing for low nitrate systems

Some reef aquaria have chronic low nitrogen availability. One indicator is very low nitrate. Nitrate dosing is a fine remedy, but it is possible that ammonia dosing may be more beneficial for some organisms since ammonia can be energetically easier to assimilate than is nitrate. For this...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Fish Fan]

Do these rocks leak phosphates over time or is that a misconception?

Yes, this can happen.

 

[rishma]

Tank is almost 7 months old, I started with CaribSea dry live rock- which I have seemed to notice was a mistake after research. Do these rocks leak phosphates over time or is that a misconception?

Rocks and sand made of calcium carbonate will bind phosphate from the water. The higher the water phosphate, the more that is bound to the rocks. When you reduce phosphate in the water, the phosphate on the rocks is released, so it replenishes the water. This is part of why it takes time to reduce phosphate in the water, the rocks act as a reservoir for phosphate.

 

[kobe6710]

Ah I see sorry I misunderstood, I will research the ammonium bicarbonate thank you very much!

This is a good discussion of ammonium bicarbonate dosing:

DIY Ammonia dosing for low nitrate systems

Some reef aquaria have chronic low nitrogen availability. One indicator is very low nitrate. Nitrate dosing is a fine remedy, but it is possible that ammonia dosing may be more beneficial for some organisms since ammonia can be energetically easier to assimilate than is nitrate. For this...

www.reef2reef.com

Hello Randy!!! I was searching for this thread thank you so much!

 

[ReefGeezer]

0-15 ppm nitrate is probably just fine. If phosphate is higher than about .1 ppm, try Tropic Marin Elimi-Phos Rapid. It is a chemical the binds phosphate so it is no longer available to the system's inhabitants. It will slowly lower the phosphate level even that leaching from the rocks. It is easy to use but you have to be careful. You can lower phosphate too quickly and some fish are sensitive to the chemical in it. I use it when I get carried away with feeding and drive phosphates up.

 

[kobe6710]

0-15 ppm nitrate is probably just fine. If phosphate is higher than about .1 ppm, try Tropic Marin Elimi-Phos Rapid. It is a chemical the binds phosphate so it is no longer available to the system's inhabitants. It will slowly lower the phosphate level even that leaching from the rocks. It is easy to use but you have to be careful. You can lower phosphate too quickly and some fish are sensitive to the chemical in it. I use it when I get carried away with feeding and drive phosphates up.

Thank you for the advice. Currently using Seachem phosguard and it has actually dropped my phosphate down to .25 from 0.75 in less than 2 weeks. I will look into the product when I’m running low

 

[kobe6710]

Tank is almost 7 months old, I started with CaribSea dry live rock- which I have seemed to notice was a mistake after research. Do these rocks leak phosphates over time or is that a misconception?

Rocks and sand made of calcium carbonate will bind phosphate from the water. The higher the water phosphate, the more that is bound to the rocks. When you reduce phosphate in the water, the phosphate on the rocks is released, so it replenishes the water. This is part of why it takes time to reduce phosphate in the water, the rocks act as a reservoir for phosphate.

I’ve never heard the process explained that way, that’s extremely helpful and eye opening thank you very much!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you for the advice. Currently using Seachem phosguard and it has actually dropped my phosphate down to .25 from 0.75 in less than 2 weeks. I will look into the product when I’m running low

FWIW, I'd be very careful trying to lower phosphate. I think many more tanks suffer from lowering phosphate too fast or too far than suffer any ill effects from phosphate in that range.

I'm also not a fan of aluminum oxide products like the Seachem Phosguard.

This is my general advice on how I'd run a reef tank (its how I run mine):

Randy’s Thoughts on Nutrient Target Ranges

Thoughts on Nutrient Target Ranges by Randy Holmes-Farley Almost nothing in the world of reef aquarium chemistry causes as much discussion as selecting and maintaining ranges for nitrate and phosphate. Some aquarists want low targets, some want...

www.reef2reef.com

from it:

4. What targets seem reasonable? Of course, that depends on all the other factors at play, such as types of corals, availability of ammonia, particulate foods, etc. However, for a mature mixed reef, this would be how I personally would run it:

• Let nitrate float between 5 ppm and 50 ppm. I’d use gentle export in this range, such as growing macroalgae.
• Above 50 ppm, I’d begin to focus more on reducing it, by organic carbon dosing, turf or macroalgae, etc.
• Below 5 ppm, I’d begin to dose ammonia or feed more. The target level might drop lower if dosing ammonia, just like the heavy in/heavy out scenario where nitrate may not be as needed.
• Let phosphate float between about 0.06 ppm and 0.3 ppm. This range is higher than I’ve recommended in the past. I’d use gentle export in this range, such as growing macroalgae.
• Above about 0.3 ppm, I’d begin to focus more on reducing it, by turf or macroalgae, or a binder such as GFO or lanthanum (has its own risks to tangs). If a binder: GO SLOW. Turf and macroalgae will typically be slow enough.
• Below 0.06 ppm, I’d begin to dose sodium phosphate or feed more to get the level up.

 

[EnterName]

Vodka dosing is not a great solution for your phosphates. It’s quite effective on nitrates but I’ve found that dosing a nitrogen source is needed for a carbon source to have a meaningful effect on phosphates.

I think you are observing (at least) two phenomena:

1. When something consumes phosphate it shifts the equilibrium between bound and freely dissolved phosphorus. This means a fraction of the consumed phosphate will slowly leech back into the water through the rock and substrate making phosphate assimilation look inefficient. This can also occur when performing water changes.
2. The carbon, nitrogen, and phosphorus (C:N:P) assimilation ratio is always skewed towards N, and especially C. This means you need a lot of carbon and nitrogen to get rid of a tiny bit of phosphorus.
   I assume after providing carbon you are running into a nitrogen limitation and therefore adding a nitrogen source (especially ammonia directly) helps. Even if you still have moderate nitrate readings it might take time to reduce NO₃ back to NH₃/NH₄ to actually get to the needed nitrogen. I believe this reduction process requires nitrate reductase, and nitrite reductase enzymes, which are based on molybdenum, and iron or copper, if I remember correctly. This makes trace elements another potential limiting factor.
   Long story short: Assimilation of phosphate based on bacteria growth will always be x times slower than nitrogen assimilation (depending on the C:N:P uptake ratio of the participating bacteria species).