Warning: Use Vibrant at your own risk

[BeanAnimal]

4. On a moral basis, they received their punishment and followed the government instructions - I don't see a moral issue using the product - but understand those that do.

I followed the UWC responses. What I saw was flagrant doublespeak and dishonesty aimed at concealing the registered algaecide in their product. This wasn't an innocent case of hiding grandma's secret spice, it was hiding the fact that grandma's secret spice was regulated poison. Furthermore, once caught they tried to sell the illusion that they had worked with scientists to create a novel bacterial metabolite that was not algaecide even if its chemical signature indicated that it was -- and they were simply bottling algaecide, not producing anything.

Speaking as a general consumer -- I wouldn't give these folks a wooden nickel if I could help it. There are more honest options.

Soylent Green!

 

[eggie]

So your saying Aspartame is good ?

This is a ridiculous diversion and makes it clear you are not interested in truth, but just to argue.

I wasn’t arguing, actually you started accusing me of using a product your against. I just said I used it in the past and recently with no side effects or issues. But you didn’t like it because it goes against of your argument

R2R use to be a forum for all the people getting well. While there was bashing and trash talking in Reef Central. Its beginning to feal the same here. IMO

 

[MnFish1]

Because he didnt understand the example and twisted to his favor. Its normal in people that always want to be right

Not everyone wants to right, but probably correct.

If you sell a brand and its Sugar free but your adding a sweetner your just a liar as the Vibrant company. Thats my point company lies simple as that

No. If you sell a brand and say its X, but its really Y its the example of vibrant as far as I heard. The Vibrant example is more like "Product X contains Aspartame + on the label, but in reality Product X contains saccharin.

He went "FDA says you have to include it in your ingredients" why doesnt FDA say put big so everyone could seenobody reads ingredients They protect the big companies

I don't know the FDA's rationale for making the ingredients small. What I don't understand is the FDA doesn't require all ingredients to be listed.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

4. On a moral basis, they received their punishment and followed the government instructions - I don't see a moral issue using the product - but understand those that do.

You don’t think a public apology to reef2reef members who were lied to (at best) is warranted before even considering using any product from them?

 

[MnFish1]

I followed the UWC responses. What I saw was flagrant doublespeak and dishonesty aimed at concealing the registered algaecide in their product. This wasn't an innocent case of hiding grandma's secret spice, it was hiding the fact that grandma's secret spice was regulated poison. Furthermore, once caught they tried to sell the illusion that they had worked with scientists to create a novel bacterial metabolite that was not algaecide even if its chemical signature indicated that it was.

Speaking as a general consumer -- wouldn't give these folks a wooden nickel if I could help it. There are more honest options.

Soylent Green!

Yes - I followed it as well and it's why I said 'I understand that people want to avoid the company for moral reasons. I was only suggesting that they, in fact, were punished and allowed to stay in business. To me this slightly (key word) mitigates what they seemed to do in the past.

 

[MnFish1]

You don’t think a public apology to reef2reef members who were lied to (at best) is warranted before even considering using any product from them?

Yes - I think that would be appropriate. However, my guess is that from a legal standpoint, they might find it problematic. And do we then add RedSea tanks, the makers of other questioned products, etc?

 

[chicago]

In the most simplest of terms this was consumer fraud. Plain and simple. Why anyone would does business with this company is beyond me. They should of had a class action lawsuit filed against them. They advertised this product as one thing, lied to the public, deceived us all. They knew if was poison. They even had different forms of it as I recall. I don't want an apology I would like them to replace the sps lost and my hard work of years to get them in the tank, growing and more.. LOL... Your not going to change morals. They are who they are. Old saying cant take the stripes of the tigers back..

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I wasn’t arguing, actually you started accusing me of using a product your against. I just said I used it in the past and recently with no side effects or issues. But you didn’t like it because it goes against of your argument

R2R use to be a forum for all the people getting well. While there was bashing and trash talking in Reef Central. Its beginning to feal the same here. IMO

Let’s not get diverted into side issues, but if you think there is any trash talk or lack of respect for any reef2reef user, report it because it is a terms of service violation.

 

[MnFish1]

In the most simplest of terms this was consumer fraud. Plain and simple. Why anyone would does business with this company is beyond me.

I don't know if you're talking about my post - but I don't support (or not suppose) people that want to use the product. I personally will not use it.

They should have had a class action lawsuit filed against them. They advertised this product as one thing, lied to the public, deceived us all.

Yes - they paid a fine, and followed the instructions of the government - which is exactly what companies like Wells Fargo, etc etc had had to do - yet millions of people still utilize them. Would you fly in a Boeing plane?

They knew if was poison. They even had different forms of it as I recall. I don't want an apology I would like them to replace the sps lost and my hard work of years to get them in the tank, growing and more

They also had a label saying keep away from children, etc - just like any other 'poison' that goes into aquariums. As to replacing SPS the problem is that people have SPS dying every day without using any products. But maybe you should sue them.

.. LOL... You're not going to change morals. They are who they are. Old saying cant take the stripes of the tigers back..

I don't think thats true. there are lots of example of 'criminals' that have been rehabilitated.

Addendum - I think people that used the product should have received full refunds for the product as part of the settlement with the FDA - but that wasn't done

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Yes - I think that would be appropriate. However, my guess is that from a legal standpoint, they might find it problematic. And do we then add RedSea tanks, the makers of other questioned products, etc?

I do not know anything about the legal situation relating to Red Sea tanks. I would not buy one, and folks should exercise their consumer right to not buy from them if they believe the company has been less than responsive. There are a number of companies that I do not support or purchase from (if there is any reasonable alternative) because of claims I believe are misleading.

 

[chicago]

Gov settling a matter is different. Than what I mentioned. And in those situations Banks have Class action lawsuits against them by consumers and have the Gov issuing fines. This is not the same as comparing actions of the banking industry or airlines. They knew it was poison and sold it as something else and it killed SPS and more in some many tanks. So many tanks.. It was sold as a miracle product and they knew it was poison. Again Plain and simple. If I use GFO and go heavy and it kills my sps that on me.. I know what the product is. If I overdose Kalk, Alk ect that's on me. In the end, I am not looking to argue.. I understand everyone has points and thoughts on this I don't need to know what a secret recipe or miracle strain or bacteria or cure is, but when its a bottle of poison, that another story. This wasn't just harmless snake oil. It killed .

 

[MnFish1]

Gov settling a matter is different. Than what I mentioned. And in those situations Banks have Class action lawsuits against them by consumers and have the Gov issuing fines. This is not the same as comparing actions of the banking industry or airlines. They knew it was poison and sold it as something else and it killed SPS and more in some many tanks. So many tanks.. It was sold as a miracle product and they knew it was poison. Again Plain and simple. If I use GFO and go heavy and it kills my sps that on me.. I know what the product is. If I overdose Kalk, Alk ect that's on me. In the end, I am not looking to argue.. I understand everyone has points and thoughts on this I don't need to know what a secret recipe or miracle strain or bacteria or cure is, but when its a bottle of poison, that another story. This wasn't just harmless snake oil. It killed .

I do not believe that the major claim against vibrant was killing coral in many many tanks, but rather some people had severe coral death/problems after using it. The main complaint was the company added an ingredient (that shouldn't harm corals) that was not on their ingredient list. The original ingredient list seemed very benign, as compared to a chemical algicide. product

 

[jda]

... and people wonder why I (and many others) have no interest trying to help anybody on here anymore... many pages of some people defending and making excuses for the non defendable.

As a refresher, the settlement with the EPA was civil. There is currently an ongoing criminal case for the consumer fraud, mail fraud and likely tax evasion. Federal. I have not heard that this was dropped or dismissed. If any of you simpletons don't want to believe this, like you did not want to believe anything else, just remember that I have not been wrong, EVER, about any of this particular issue. They copied products like AlgaeFix and the Fritz one (forgot the name) and then made a decision to lie about bacteria to sell it. The fraud was then perpetuated and continued relentlessly, which is a different level to a DA than a mistake. This was no accident and the fraud is still a big deal to people with morals and integrity who understand how this could snowball in society if not checked.

If you want to affect change, then let BRS know that you will never buy from them again since they just swept this under the rug. I did. I don't post nearly all on here anymore because I don't care that r2r took UWCs money and then won't allow for people to gather to possibly seek retribution - ridiculous turn away to me on the level of sweeping it all near the rug. I rarely ever purchased products without ingredient lists, but stopped completely now. Turn in companies who don't list their ingredients - EPA made it really clear that anything that deals with pests needs to be registered (the product AND the facility). Lastly, if a product is not allowed to be sold in the EU or Canada, then don't buy it since they are probably skirting US regulations. Most importantly, never make excuses for bad behavior. Saying "the product worked, but..." is stupid since the morons forget everything after the but, and it makes you a useful idiot in the classic definition.

It will not take much of the above for things to change.

Fun read for the old timers. I have no idea how Boyd gets away with not putting ingredients on their products. If you happen to think that Boyd are scumbags, you can always buy from BlueZoo who has admitted that their product contains Tylosin as an antibiotic.
https://yosemite.epa.gov/oa/rhc/epaadmin.nsf/Filings/748992F4182F94EC8525797C0021019B/$File/CAFO.pdf

 

[chicago]

MnFish1.. I hear what you are saying.. As you can tell my position on this is very biased as I used and lost of lot of high end SPS .. While the cost is one thing.. but having been in hobby for 40 plus years, and have tank wipe outs from ICK ect and then and now doing 100% wet get QT ... it took so so many hours to get the SPS in the tank and more.. its all the hard work more than the money that gets me on this ... None of my posts were meant as a personal attack in any form. We all can have opinions on the matter.. Be Well

 

[Reefer Matt]

Fun read for the old timers. I have no idea how Boyd gets away with not putting ingredients on their products.
https://yosemite.epa.gov/oa/rhc/epaadmin.nsf/Filings/748992F4182F94EC8525797C0021019B/$File/CAFO.pdf

I was wondering why Chemiclean says “Treatment for stains from red cyanobacteria.” Now I know, thanks.

 

[MnFish1]

... and people wonder why I (and many others) have no interest trying to help anybody on here anymore... many pages of some people defending and making excuses for the non defendable.

As a refresher, the settlement with the EPA was civil. There is currently an ongoing criminal case for the consumer fraud, mail fraud and likely tax evasion. Federal. I have not heard that this was dropped or dismissed. If any of you simpletons don't want to believe this, like you did not want to believe anything else, just remember that I have not been wrong, EVER, about any of this particular issue. They copied products like AlgaeFix and the Fritz one (forgot the name) and then made a decision to lie about bacteria to sell it. The fraud was then perpetuated and continued relentlessly, which is a different level to a DA than a mistake. This was no accident and the fraud is still a big deal to people with morals and integrity who understand how this could snowball in society if not checked.

If you want to affect change, then let BRS know that you will never buy from them again since they just swept this under the rug. I did. I don't post nearly all on here anymore because I don't care that r2r took UWCs money and then won't allow for people to gather to possibly seek retribution - ridiculous turn away to me on the level of sweeping it all near the rug. I rarely ever purchased products without ingredient lists, but stopped completely now. Turn in companies who don't list their ingredients - EPA made it really clear that anything that deals with pests needs to be registered (the product AND the facility). Lastly, if a product is not allowed to be sold in the EU or Canada, then don't buy it since they are probably skirting US regulations. Most importantly, never make excuses for bad behavior. Saying "the product worked, but..." is stupid since the morons forget everything after the but, and it makes you a useful idiot in the classic definition.

It will not take much of the above for things to change.

Fun read for the old timers. I have no idea how Boyd gets away with not putting ingredients on their products. If you happen to think that Boyd are scumbags, you can always buy from BlueZoo who has admitted that their product contains Tylosin as an antibiotic.
https://yosemite.epa.gov/oa/rhc/epaadmin.nsf/Filings/748992F4182F94EC8525797C0021019B/$File/CAFO.pdf

Thanks for the update- I was not aware of the other legal matters!

 

[chicago]

Here is a bit of a summary : for those jumping to the last page thinking of using this product.. If you search you will find pics of reefers who lost whole tanks of sps.

Vibrant sold by Underwater Creations, faced legal action over these false claims. September 2024 settlement with the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), the company was forced to stop selling its unregistered pesticides and pay a $226,652 penalty.
The false claims made by the company and the resulting actions include:

• Misleading product description: For years, the manufacturer marketed its "Vibrant" line of products as a blend of bacteria for aquarium cleaning. However, independent chemical analyses conducted by hobbyists found the product contained algaecides, not bacteria. I believe this was by a R2R member?
• Undisclosed ingredients: Investigations revealed that the active ingredients in Vibrant were polyquaternium compounds, such as polyixetonium chloride and Busan 77, which are used as algaecides and molluscicides. These chemicals are also found in API Algae Fix.
• Violations of FIFRA: The EPA cited Underwater Creations for selling unregistered pesticides, including Vibrant Reef, Vibrant Saltwater, and Vibrant Freshwater. Under the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act (FIFRA), any product claiming to kill or repel pests must be registered with the EPA.
• Consumer harm: The undisclosed chemicals and false claims posed a risk to aquarium hobbyists. Some reef tank owners reported the death of sensitive invertebrates, like clams and corals, after using Vibrant.
• EPA settlement: In September 2024, Underwater Creations settled with the EPA and was ordered to cease production and pay a fine. The company also had to register its products as pesticides to ensure they are properly labeled and meet safety standards.

 

[chicago]

here is what I was referring to... BRS... at 14:00 bacteria eating bubble algae.
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/content/post/top-20-algae-mistakes
7:19 https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/content/post/5-minute-saltwater-aquarium-guide-ep25-algae

 

[MnFish1]

MnFish1.. I hear what you are saying.. As you can tell my position on this is very biased as I used and lost of lot of high end SPS .. While the cost is one thing.. but having been in hobby for 40 plus years, and have tank wipe outs from ICK ect and then and now doing 100% wet get QT ... it took so so many hours to get the SPS in the tank and more.. its all the hard work more than the money that gets me on this ... None of my posts were meant as a personal attack in any form. We all can have opinions on the matter.. Be Well

Oh - Sorry - I didn't take any of your posts as a personal attack. I agree wholeheartedly that the product (probably algae fix as well) can affect corals. It is a terrible thing to lose corals - my point was along the lines of 'don't use either, they can both harm corals', instead use natural methods. Unlike some here - if someone wants to buy Vibrant - I'm not going to lose sleep over it on a moral basis though I clearly see where thats an issue for some people and thats fine too. That doesn't mean I agree with UWC methods, or the routine use of their (or algae fix) products.

My other point is I'm pretty sure without naming names - that many of the common additives, etc that people are adding to their tanks - with huge price tags are also not doing what they are supposed to do - or - identical products with different names could be bought for higher/lower prices.