Water Changes and or Dosing Trace Elements

[Steve2020]

From what I have read, there seems to be many varying opinions on doing water changes or dosing minor/trace elements or doing both. First lets say your nutrients are in an acceptable range without doing any water changes at all. I will use BRS 2 part and Red Sea Colors ABCD during this discussion. Your salt mix mixes at Alk=9.0, Cal=450 and mag at 1500. You are dosing BRS 2 part at 51ml ALK and Cal and Mag at 8.5ml daily to maintain your Alk, Cal and Mag. If dosing Red Sea Colors ABCD the instructions for BRS 2 part would be 1ml of ABCD each daily. When people recommend a 10% water change lets say every 2 weeks without dosing ABCD that would equate to a loss of 14ml of trace elements that is in the ABCD. I am not sure what the individual loss of each trace element would be but seems like a lot. Does the 10% water change completely replenish the trace elements? From what I have read in some other threads some say NO. Would they end up becoming really low over a long period of time? Using the above example if you do both water changes and dose ABCD I would think now elements would be high over time. If the instructions for ABCD are correct and the elements in ABCD are correct as advertised then why would people do both water change and dose ABCD? So I am probably off base here but it seems to me if ABCD does what is advertised, and I believe it does based on what I have noticed in my corals, why do water changes at all? If only doing water changes, are you completely replenishing trace element that is equivalent to ABCD?
Last question is why would you do both?

 

[PatW]

Water changes are a good brute force technique of maintaining water chemistry. If you were doing water changes with natural sea water, a 10% water change will only replenish 10% of the trace elements. Remember, you are not likely to have completely depleted the trace elements in your display tank. And I believe that certain salt mixes have enhanced levels of certain trace elements so a 10% water change might actually make up for a 20% trace element depletion.

Dosing trace elements is a way to maintain them. The dosing can be calibrated to the consumption of ALK or Ca. Of course, that is assuming that Ca or ALK consumption track trace element consumption. But it just does not seem to be feasible to base trace element dosing on measuring trace elements. So any trace element dosing is by guess and by gosh. And that is unsatisfying.

So the most conservative approach would be to rely on Brute Force water changes. However, if you have high levels of Ca and ALK consumption, water changes of that scale just are not feasible In the vast majority of circumstances.

And there are a number of schemes of trace element replenishment that have seemed to have worked well in a wide number of systems.

I like to use a hybrid strategy of water changes and some trace element dosing. But it is you makes your picks and takes your chances.

 

[G Santana]

I agree with @PatW 100%
I dose AFR and do the occasional water change on my 130 gallon. I think that you have to pass the break-in period where your tank actually matures before giving up on scheduled water changes though.

 

[Lavey29]

Weekly water changes replenish trace without the need for dosing. If you go monthly on water changes then you might need trace dosing if you have a full stock if corals. I've done both and measured results with ICP tests. Pretty much the same either way. Few trace are high or low but nothing that will cause problems for the tank. My scores were 93% or better on the test.

 

[Steven Garland]

Are you looking to replace micro/macro elements and not just cal,mag,K,SR?

The cheapest way I have seen in Reef Blueprint by Captiv8 Aquaculture who is supposedly the starter of Brightwell after he left. They have 10x 10ml bottles of micro/macro elements for $20 and a few others like K,SR,BR,B,RB that aren't included in that bundle.

I feel like this is the best way,that way if one element is good but another not so much you can solely deal with that element without raising another.

Reef Blueprint Isol8 Minor and Trace Element Pack 100mL

Individual 10 mL bottles of Isol8: Co; F; Fe; I; Mn; Mo; Ni; Se; V; Zn. 100 mL total.

www.championlighting.com

They also sell each element in 60ml for about $12 a bottle some are more. Or if you don't want 100 bottles SeaChem Trace & Plus pretty much contain all same elements in two bottles vs about 15.

 

[Steve2020]

Not looking for cheapest way but thanks for the recommendation. I was just looking at what people thought about water changes and dosing trace elements. With just a few responses I am already seeing different opinions. When I had a Dino outbreak I completely stopped water changes as part of my eradication process. I used to do AWC at 3.5gal per day everyday which equated to a 9.6% water change per week. Dino's have been completely eradicated for about 3-4mo now and I decided to stop the water changes for the most part and dose Colors ABCD. My tank has never looked better and SPS frags that were not growing and losing some color have taken off in growth and color has returned.
LPS seem to have more vibrant color especially my torches and Lobo's. The only time I will do a water change now is when I completely drain my sump for cleaning every 3mo or so. Sump water volume at 8" water line in skimmer section holds 37gal which equates to 14% water change of my total water volume. I have very little faith in ICP test. Prior to my Dino outbreak I used to do an ICP test every 3mo and every test would differ by quite a bit so I decided to check the validity of these test by submitting two test 3 days apart. I drew the samples at the same time and mailed them 3 days apart and the results came back not even close in comparison. The only test that were close to the same was the RODI test. I did this test prior to my Dino outbreak
I am one that does not believe unless you do something like a 50%+ water change every few weeks that all trace elements are replenished or even close to the actual numbers in fresh mixed saltwater. I plan on continuing with dosing ABCD and in a month or so I will submit three test. Two from my tank at the same time and one from my saltwater mixing tank and see what the results say.

 

[jsker]

@PatW has a great comment about the percentage of replenishing based on a water change.

I have been doing water changes for years, mainly to export waste and not to solely count on replenishing the elements. I used to dose Kalwaser in the beginning, then mixed elements in with the water change water. If and when one has there system balanced with the bio load, one really would not have to do a water change, only dose elements as corals grow.

I switch to dosing my elements using the balling method and I use Aquaforest's 1+2+3+ mix my own recipe with a doser to spread out through the day for a better more even dose and for consistent dosing.

 

[Steve2020]

@PatW has a great comment about the percentage of replenishing based on a water change.

I have been doing water changes for years, mainly to export waste and not to solely count on replenishing the elements. I used to dose Kalwaser in the beginning, then mixed elements in with the water change water. If and when one has there system balanced with the bio load, one really would not have to do a water change, only dose elements as corals grow.

I switch to dosing my elements using the balling method and I use Aquaforest's 1+2+3+ mix my own recipe with a doser to spread out through the day for a better more even dose and for consistent dosing.

Thanks for the reply. What would you consider a balanced Bio Load? Prior to my Dino outbreak my nutrients were kept stable at NO3=9-11ppm and PO4= .05-.07. I am predominant LPS and softies but have started adding SPS slowly the past 6mo. Tank is post cycle 24mo. Have 9 SPS and 33 LPS and a few softies. Occasionally I had to dose Trisodium Phosphate when my PO4 would drop to .03ppm. I ended up increasing my nutrients during the Dino eradication process and my SSB and rock became PO4 saturated. I was able to get the nutrients back down to original pre Dino values and they have been stable for the last month. I have a good cleanup crew and Diamond Goby that stir up my SSB and keep it spotless. Because I have recently stopped water changes except for when I clean my sump, if, and that's a big if I need to clean my sand I plan on siphoning it into a 100 micron sock that has a 1 micron sock on the outside. This worked great in the past for me when I didn't have the CUC and Goby to stir the sand like I do now. I have 2 MP60's and 2 MP40's that twice a day an hour after feeding time go into a 75min Nutrient Transport at 75%. This mode really stirs up my tank. So my rock and substrate stay what I consider really clean.
Do you think I need to do some small water changes along with dosing ABCD? I really want to wait lets say 6mo to see if what I am currently doing continues to make my corals thrive.
What do you think?

 

[Steven Garland]

Well from what I am seeing,looking like those elements keep being low,that would be the best next step to keep them elevated ?

What did you do to beat dinos ?

 

[Lavey29]

Can you elaborate on your 2 identical ICP tests that differed significantly with the lab report? What areas were different significantly?

 

[Steve2020]

Can you elaborate on your 2 identical ICP tests that differed significantly with the lab report? What areas were different significantly?

Not Sure if significant but seem like big differences to me. I the test are accurate they should be close if not identical I would think. Below were the 4 main ones that caught my eye.

Zinc 3.23, 22.67ug/l
Barium 81.71, 13.43ug/l
Strontium 19.28, 3,26ug/l
Manganese 4.21, n.u.

 

[Lavey29]

Not Sure if significant but seem like big differences to me. I the test are accurate they should be close if not identical I would think. Below were the 4 main ones that caught my eye.

Zinc 3.23, 22.67ug/l
Barium 81.71, 13.43ug/l
Strontium 19.28, 3,26ug/l
Manganese 4.21, n.u.

Aside from lab errors perhaps Randy might have some reason for the fluctuations in those trace number between the 2 tests. I sometimes wonder if airborne particulates get into our tank and cause minor changes. We already know how fresh air and C02 affect our PH.

 

[Steve2020]

Well from what I am seeing,looking like those elements keep being low,that would be the best next step to keep them elevated ?

What did you do to beat dinos ?

Stopped water changes. Increased my NO3 from approx 10ppm to 18ppm slowly, Increased PO4 from approx .06ppm to .28ppm slowly. I removed the top 1/4" of sand of my SSB. I added some more Pods, dosed 8 blend phyto every night at lights out, dosed MB7 & MB Clean every night alternating the two, dosed a DIY flocculant once a week with the MB7 added, and dosed sodium silicate to get a diatom bloom. I had LCA and it was completely gone within 2mo according to samples taken looking under a microscope. I continued the process for an extra 2wks. Diatoms gone 3 weeks later. Worked for me.

 

[Steven Garland]

10-4. I have been fighting them for about a month so far. I have been keeping phosphates/nitrates elevated,haven't done a water change,I got some pods and have been dosing live phyto,I haven't dosed any MB7 yet. I have some SpongePower (silicate) coming from BRS. I have also been dosing Coral Snow from KZ.

Surprisingly enough my acro's look great still which is good.

 

[rtparty]

Water changes won’t replenish the vast majority of elements. Not a single salt on market has elevated trace elements by design. Most of them have elevated iron and manganese as impurities from other raw materials. Both of these are metabolized super quick in our systems and there is some merit to dosing them daily.

I would never blindly dose trace elements and I would use individual trace elements to correct any that show low or depleted on an ICP test. I would be ICP testing my tank every 3 months at a minimum if worried about trace elements.

As for stopping water changes, it works great until it doesn’t. Water changes are a poor way of controlling nutrients and/or replenishing elements. What water changes are good at is being some of the cheapest insurance you can have for a tank and they remove organic and inorganic compounds that build up and we can’t test for.

Changing your view on water changes actually are, makes you want to keep doing them even when things are going well.

 

[Steve2020]

Water changes won’t replenish the vast majority of elements. Not a single salt on market has elevated trace elements by design. Most of them have elevated iron and manganese as impurities from other raw materials. Both of these are metabolized super quick in our systems and there is some merit to dosing them daily.

I would never blindly dose trace elements and I would use individual trace elements to correct any that show low or depleted on an ICP test. I would be ICP testing my tank every 3 months at a minimum if worried about trace elements.

As for stopping water changes, it works great until it doesn’t. Water changes are a poor way of controlling nutrients and/or replenishing elements. What water changes are good at is being some of the cheapest insurance you can have for a tank and they remove organic and inorganic compounds that build up and we can’t test for.

Changing your view on water changes actually are, makes you want to keep doing them even when things are going well.

Excellent info. Appreciate it. So, I am curious about one thing. If you would never blindly dose trace elements, then are you saying that the Red Sea Colors ABCD instructions are false? They correlate the dosing on calcium uptake. Is that a false statement? The way I understand their instructions is they say that the elements are depleted at a ratio of calcium depletion.

 

[Steve2020]

10-4. I have been fighting them for about a month so far. I have been keeping phosphates/nitrates elevated,haven't done a water change,I got some pods and have been dosing live phyto,I haven't dosed any MB7 yet. I have some SpongePower (silicate) coming from BRS. I have also been dosing Coral Snow from KZ.

Surprisingly enough my acro's look great still which is good.

Does the KZ Coral Snow have bacteria in it? I think it might if it works on Cyano like they say. If it does, myself I would not also dose MB7.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The cheapest way I have seen in Reef Blueprint by Captiv8 Aquaculture who is supposedly the starter of Brightwell after he left.

That is definitely not a reason to use it, IMO. Brightwell products have long shown a distinct lack of chemical understanding.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was just looking at what people thought about water changes and dosing trace elements. With just a few responses I am already seeing different opinions.

Not surprising at all. That's a very complicated question without any perfect answer for every system.

Do not assume that water changes are the biggest source of trace elements in most tanks,. Foods will be, if you are not dosing.

Water changes and foods are enough to keep great tanks, but are often not enough to maintain NSW levels of trace elements. Is that necessary? There's little data on what minimum (or maximum) level of trace elements are needed for the organisms we keep.

ICP also says nothing about the chemical form of different trace elements so cannot say how bioavailable they are.

If you have the time and interest, I think a trial and error approach, starting with an ICP from a good company, followed by raising one at a time to NSW levels and seeing if the tank apparently improves in some way is a good approach.

If you do not have the time and energy to do that, then I'd suggest a trace element mix dosed at the recommended level using an additive mix from a company you trust, such as Tropic Marin A and K.

 

[Jonty]

I have found the water changes provide complete trace element stability (backed up with ICP results) dosing trace elements in the past had me chasing different elements dosing to get a balance that was defined as ideal by the Trident testing. The volume and regularity takes time to figure out but with ICP testing you can chase it down. For me, it has been 10% weekly.