Waterchanges might be a farce

[MixedFruitBasket]

There is a guy in the Netherlands (I think that's where so forgive me if I'm wrong) who hasn't done a water change in 10 years or so (last I heard) and manages everything through chemical control. I've forgotten his name, but his methods have been controversial, however his tank is so stunning a few people don't believe him when he says he hasn't done water changes that long.

Anyhow, Richard Ross did a panel at MACNA called the Right Kind of Lazy. It's on YouTube, and very informative and makes you think.

 

[ctopherl]

I feel we change far to much water and it is counter productive. The tanks with the most tweeking and messing with are the ones that crash the most.
I change about 20% of my water maybe 4 or 5 times a year and have been doing that or less for fifty years.

No problems yet.

Then how often do you measure nitrates and phosphates, and what do you find they average at? If they are low how do you keep them so low?

 

[BeltedCoyote]

There is a guy in the Netherlands (I think that's where so forgive me if I'm wrong) who hasn't done a water change in 10 years or so (last I heard) and manages everything through chemical control. I've forgotten his name, but his methods have been controversial, however his tank is so stunning a few people don't believe him when he says he hasn't done water changes that long.

Anyhow, Richard Ross did a panel at MACNA called the Right Kind of Lazy. It's on YouTube, and very informative and makes you think.

His name is Glenn (@glennf) and he’s actually a member here.

his methodology is know as Dutch synthetic reefing and the simplified version is available here in the states. Some users are already running it and I’m planning on running it with my build

 

[ctopherl]

So my background is reefing since 2005.

I use to be this big believer in bimonthly waterchanges .... but now slowly AND firmly changing my mind.

First off, I'm not a SPSer (acros and the like) ... thats a whooooole different ballgame. I'm a LPS'er, heavily involved in zoas/palys

Okay...to the point of this post:

Ever since discovering dosing the strain of blue-green Phytoplankton... im starting to truly believe that waterchanges are only really necessary for major/minor element control that get low or high.

So I'm asking myself;

"If I'm doing regular waterchanges "just because...", am I taking out all that good biochemistry that includes built up phytoplankton? I mean... look at a natural reef swarming in blue-green phytoplankton giving that ocean reef water that turquoise look"

"Is adding brand new saltwater putting a stress on my little ecosystem, where this new water has to biochemically cook and convert??"

Ever since:

* slowing down my waterchanges

* using my skimming to more-wet

* dosing blue-green strain of phytoplankton

* dosing trace elements thru a product called Replinish

* testing and looking for out of range Calcium, Alk and Mag

..... Im seeing mushrooms, zoas, palys plump up to sizes ive never seen before.

So religious Waterchanger ppl might say "What about nitrate/Phosphate control? You gotta change your water every 2 weeks!"

In some mild researching, I'm reading how dosing the strain of Blue-Green Phytoplankton OUTCOMPETES nuisance algae and makes for a more balanced tank.

I'm reeeeally starting to think regular waterchanges is dumping good biochemical water down the drain that worked so hard to achieve a balance.

If I can control my NO3 and PO4 thru heavy skimming, dosing phytoplankton .... why would I do a waterchange UNLESS smthg like Calcium or Carbonate or Magnesium was off?

And if I can dose major and minor elements to keep them within range...AND my no3/po4 are in check... why do a waterchange?

Dilute my biochemistry and the phytoplankton > zooplankton > corals and fish ecosystem chain (?)

To where new saltwater has to "re-cook" that biochemistry?

WHATS YOUR OPINION ON WATERCHANGES????




.

So many questions!

* Your post mentions phyto out competing algae for nutrients-sure. You briefly mention nitrates and phosphates staying in check. What does that mean exactly? How often are you measuring and what do you find your average reading is for each?
* Do you believe (have you tested?) that phyto controls your nitrate and phosphate levels?
* Do you still believe nitrates are harmful to fish (/corals) if they get too high? Or do you think people overreact on desired ranges?

I’m in the process of trying to reduce nitrates as much as possible with no work, but find they still creep up over a week or two forcing me to do a WC.

 

[MixedFruitBasket]

His name is Glenn (@glennf) and he’s actually a member here.

his methodology is know as Dutch synthetic reefing and the simplified version is available here in the states. Some users are already running it and I’m planning on running it with my build

Thank you. Yes Dutch. Sorry, hopefully that didn't insult him.

 

[MixedFruitBasket]

So many questions!

* Your post mentions phyto out competing algae for nutrients-sure. You briefly mention nitrates and phosphates staying in check. What does that mean exactly? How often are you measuring and what do you find your average reading is for each?
* Do you believe (have you tested?) that phyto controls your nitrate and phosphate levels?
* Do you still believe nitrates are harmful to fish (/corals) if they get too high? Or do you think people overreact on desired ranges?

I’m in the process of trying to reduce nitrates as much as possible with no work, but find they still creep up over a week or two forcing me to do a WC.

Many of these questions are also touched on in Richard Ross's Macna panel. I posted the YouTube link above.

 

[Midrats]

I was reading the fine print on a bag of Accurasea salt and it says to change 10% monthly. I found this refreshing in these times of mandatory weekly 20% water changes. That's what Julian Sprung is recommending and the guy is selling salt. Good for him for sticking to his principals.

 

[ZoWhat]

You know.... while we are are sleeping, GOD is working hard doing a 20% worldwide waterchange among various Oceans ;)

You otta see the SIZE of His buckets.....

 

[Russell Casey]

I do not do water changes on any of my tanks anymore. Occasionally they may get a replenishment of new water due to the skimmer removing some or I remove detritus from the sump. But nothing major or scheduled.

I do dose phyto on all of the tanks via a drip that runs all day and night. This includes my sps dominated tank. All other major and minor elements are dosed. Skimmers are half wet/half dry, so to speak.

Since dosing phyto regularly, things just do better. Almost no algae on glass, none on the rocks, PE and growth like no tomorrow from sps, fat lps and zoas, plus my micro critter population is massive. My fuge makes more macro then I know what to do with as well. No3 stays at 10 and po4 at .08. Which is right where I want them.

In my opinion, I think phyto is a big element of a tank that gets overlooked.

On a side note. I used to do religious water changes. Had to leave for a month for work, wife could not fathom how to do a water change, so they were not done. She also misunderstood my phyto dosing schedule and was dumping loads of phyto in and not what I told here. Came back from the trip and tanks never looked better. From then on, I just matched what she was dumping in the tanks via a drip over the day and went with it. I did have to buy some more dosing pumps, but those have paid for themselves with not having to buy a ton of salt.

With regard to your skimmer, I thought dosing phyto with the skimmer on is a no no. Or do you simply dose a drip and go from there? Are you using live phyto and keeping it cold? Could you go into more detail as I concur with you 100% that phytoplankton dosing triples or more the little critters. When I quit dosing in a week or two I see much less population. Thanks

 

[Paul B]

Then how often do you measure nitrates and phosphates, and what do you find they average at? If they are low how do you keep them so low?

I really don't check those things. Maybe once a year or two I have a LFS check them just for conversation but in an older tank those things stay stable and whatever the number is, if the corals are thriving and the fish are spawning, what difference does it make?

If tank is mature and living with no problems that means it is a self sustaining eco system that needs little to no help from us as we would just mess it up.

The bacteria that take care of that stuff know what they are doing.
I also don't add any suppliments that would screw up the system, just calcium and alk.

 

[ZoWhat]

I really don't check those things. Maybe once a year or two I have a LFS check them just for conversation but in an older tank those things stay stable and whatever the number is, if the corals are thriving and the fish are spawning, what difference does it make?

If tank is mature and living with no problems that means it is a self sustaining eco system that needs little to no help from us as we would just mess it up.

The bacteria that take care of that stuff know what they are doing.
I also don't add any suppliments that would screw up the system, just calcium and alk.

Agreed.... everyones testing testing testing. Like nervous lil rabbits. Plzzzz :rolleyes: "OMG my Alk went from 8.4 to 8.6 ..... PANICK" :eek:.

I test WITH MY EYES. Yeah I might do a Calc/Alk/Mag/no3/po4 test every 3mos....

....but when I SEE fleshy plumped-up mushrooms and palys, why sweat the Salifert?

Only thing I reliably WATCH a few times a week is Salinity



.

 

[forestsofkelp]

Then how often do you measure nitrates and phosphates, and what do you find they average at? If they are low how do you keep them so low?

My understanding is nitrates are reduced with carbon dosing, which promotes bacterial growth. Phosphates are managed with iron, it complexes with the phosphate to form a particulate that is then captured by the power filer (basically a pump with filter floss to capture all free floating detritus)

 

[terraincognita]

I feel we change far to much water and it is counter productive. The tanks with the most tweeking and messing with are the ones that crash the most.
I change about 20% of my water maybe 4 or 5 times a year and have been doing that or less for fifty years.

No problems yet.

I think this simple thought concept is the most accurate and best of any in reefing.

KISS and try to tinker as little as possible.

With the right thoughts in the starting of the tank, and initial growth, you can really just let it be whether you chose to water change or not. keeping them smaller (even if more frequent,) are more ideal than too much tinkering.

 

[Doglips56]

I do not do water changes on any of my tanks anymore. Occasionally they may get a replenishment of new water due to the skimmer removing some or I remove detritus from the sump. But nothing major or scheduled.

I do dose phyto on all of the tanks via a drip that runs all day and night. This includes my sps dominated tank. All other major and minor elements are dosed. Skimmers are half wet/half dry, so to speak.

Since dosing phyto regularly, things just do better. Almost no algae on glass, none on the rocks, PE and growth like no tomorrow from sps, fat lps and zoas, plus my micro critter population is massive. My fuge makes more macro then I know what to do with as well. No3 stays at 10 and po4 at .08. Which is right where I want them.

In my opinion, I think phyto is a big element of a tank that gets overlooked.

On a side note. I used to do religious water changes. Had to leave for a month for work, wife could not fathom how to do a water change, so they were not done. She also misunderstood my phyto dosing schedule and was dumping loads of phyto in and not what I told here. Came back from the trip and tanks never looked better. From then on, I just matched what she was dumping in the tanks via a drip over the day and went with it. I did have to buy some more dosing pumps, but those have paid for themselves with not having to buy a ton of salt.

Hi,
Can I please ask you what phytoplankton product you are using that is room temperature stable and are you using a dosing pump to drip it in? If so, at what rate? I have a mixed reef which includes a maxima clam, lots of softies and a few low end sps (monti’s, encrusting and a couple of easy sticks like birds nest and stylo). Very interested to learn your system. I do not doze anything else, do small infrequent water changes. DT ~125g sump ~ 45g

 

[Backreefing]

For me water changes are for
1 ditritis removal
2 correction of water parameters
3 small water changes for Matenence of things that cannot be measured.
a few weeks ago I did a 50% water change on my 90 gallon because I suspected chlorimine was in the water . Regardless the aquariums response was positive. This weekend I will vacuum a portion of the gravel. Probably 5-10 gallons is all .
water changes have there merit.

 

[danieyella]

Hi,
Can I please ask you what phytoplankton product you are using that is room temperature stable and are you using a dosing pump to drip it in? If so, at what rate? I have a mixed reef which includes a maxima clam, lots of softies and a few low end sps (monti’s, encrusting and a couple of easy sticks like birds nest and stylo). Very interested to learn your system. I do not doze anything else, do small infrequent water changes. DT ~125g sump ~ 45g

I can't speak for them; however, I personally use easybooster from easyreefs on a doser.

 

[Doglips56]

I can't speak for them; however, I personally use easybooster from easyreefs on a doser.

Thank you!

 

[MnFish1]

So my background is reefing since 2005.

I use to be this big believer in bimonthly waterchanges .... but now slowly AND firmly changing my mind.

First off, I'm not a SPSer (acros and the like) ... thats a whooooole different ballgame. I'm a LPS'er, heavily involved in zoas/palys

Okay...to the point of this post:

Ever since discovering dosing the strain of blue-green Phytoplankton... im starting to truly believe that waterchanges are only really necessary for major/minor element control that get low or high.

So I'm asking myself;

"If I'm doing regular waterchanges "just because...", am I taking out all that good biochemistry that includes built up phytoplankton? I mean... look at a natural reef swarming in blue-green phytoplankton giving that ocean reef water that turquoise look"

"Is adding brand new saltwater putting a stress on my little ecosystem, where this new water has to biochemically cook and convert??"

Ever since:

* slowing down my waterchanges

* using my skimming to more-wet

* dosing blue-green strain of phytoplankton

* dosing trace elements thru a product called Replinish

* testing and looking for out of range Calcium, Alk and Mag

..... Im seeing mushrooms, zoas, palys plump up to sizes ive never seen before.

So religious Waterchanger ppl might say "What about nitrate/Phosphate control? You gotta change your water every 2 weeks!"

In some mild researching, I'm reading how dosing the strain of Blue-Green Phytoplankton OUTCOMPETES nuisance algae and makes for a more balanced tank.

I'm reeeeally starting to think regular waterchanges is dumping good biochemical water down the drain that worked so hard to achieve a balance.

If I can control my NO3 and PO4 thru heavy skimming, dosing phytoplankton .... why would I do a waterchange UNLESS smthg like Calcium or Carbonate or Magnesium was off?

And if I can dose major and minor elements to keep them within range...AND my no3/po4 are in check... why do a waterchange?

Dilute my biochemistry and the phytoplankton > zooplankton > corals and fish ecosystem chain (?)

To where new saltwater has to "re-cook" that biochemistry?

WHATS YOUR OPINION ON WATERCHANGES????

1. there is the old maxim - if you cant measure what you're adding - dont add it. (you can add that to the nothing good in the hobby happens fast)
2. What is the difference between doing water changes to keep parameters 'in range' - as compared to adding multiple trace elements, phytoplankton
3. What evidence is there that the 'phytoplankton' being added does any more than stirring up sand at the bottom of the tank (for filter feeders)?
4. My GUESS is that the amount you're spending on additives, etc - equals what you would spend on water changes
5. I think the key to your program is not the additives - its looking for out of range ca, alkalinity and mg...

It was an interesting post though

 

[MnFish1]

Yes, the LFS' profit margin on salt is so great :rolleyes:

And the LFS margin on phytoplankton is great...

 

[JSully_94]

So my background is reefing since 2005.

I use to be this big believer in bimonthly waterchanges .... but now slowly AND firmly changing my mind.

First off, I'm not a SPSer (acros and the like) ... thats a whooooole different ballgame. I'm a LPS'er, heavily involved in zoas/palys

Okay...to the point of this post:

Ever since discovering dosing the strain of blue-green Phytoplankton... im starting to truly believe that waterchanges are only really necessary for major/minor element control that get low or high.

So I'm asking myself;

"If I'm doing regular waterchanges "just because...", am I taking out all that good biochemistry that includes built up phytoplankton? I mean... look at a natural reef swarming in blue-green phytoplankton giving that ocean reef water that turquoise look"

"Is adding brand new saltwater putting a stress on my little ecosystem, where this new water has to biochemically cook and convert??"

Ever since:

* slowing down my waterchanges

* using my skimming to more-wet

* dosing blue-green strain of phytoplankton

* dosing trace elements thru a product called Replinish

* testing and looking for out of range Calcium, Alk and Mag

..... Im seeing mushrooms, zoas, palys plump up to sizes ive never seen before.

So religious Waterchanger ppl might say "What about nitrate/Phosphate control? You gotta change your water every 2 weeks!"

In some mild researching, I'm reading how dosing the strain of Blue-Green Phytoplankton OUTCOMPETES nuisance algae and makes for a more balanced tank.

I'm reeeeally starting to think regular waterchanges is dumping good biochemical water down the drain that worked so hard to achieve a balance.

If I can control my NO3 and PO4 thru heavy skimming, dosing phytoplankton .... why would I do a waterchange UNLESS smthg like Calcium or Carbonate or Magnesium was off?

And if I can dose major and minor elements to keep them within range...AND my no3/po4 are in check... why do a waterchange?

Dilute my biochemistry and the phytoplankton > zooplankton > corals and fish ecosystem chain (?)

To where new saltwater has to "re-cook" that biochemistry?

WHATS YOUR OPINION ON WATERCHANGES????




.

What is the brand name of the blue-green phytoplankton product you’re dosing?