We Should Vote With Our Wallets!!!

[McMullen]

Many great points made from different angles. I think this thread is a success as general discussion continues.

My opinion, most products by the top brands are over priced when considering the performance long term. I would pay 3, 4, or 5 hundred dollars for a pump or power head if it was gaurunteed for 5, 7, or how about even 10 years. It seems the trend is for all products, not just aquarium, to be disposable. Companies care less about longevity because people by there aquarium products like they buy there cell phones (generalization to some degree).

 

[Servillius]

What is AI doing? While I like the actual lights and the control it gives, it was a major pain to get them connected wirelessly. Then to get the master light to see the slave lights was a whole other challenge. That's the biggest issue if you read Android app reviews for AI.

If you have a secure router, and you don't use the routers basic default settings, you have a tough time. I had to actually use one of my other cell phones to get local access because my phone was locked down. They did a firmware update that improved some things but took away others.

AI is owned by Ecotech, right?

I think Neptune works a lot like the game industry. They make small profits on the unit (Apex or game console), but make boat loads off all the accessories you need to use with it (games/accessories for consoles and the hundred accessories Neptune sells for the Apex).

In regards to the new COR pumps, why is it that you must own an Apex to use the smaller one, but not the bigger one? Obviously the smaller one will fit more peoples' needs unless they have 120+ gallon tank, therefore requiring the controller. I think that was a mistake on Neptune's part. They excluded the mass market. I doubt people will buy the $700 controller just to use the $200 pump.

I just mean their wireless control is easier than director. That said, the industry really could use someone who gets the idea we don’t all want to be tech geeks just to get a light to work.

I don’t use Apex because it’s too much trouble. Every new update is a war with my home network that I end up losing.

I switched back to DA because while it’s simple, it’s also simple. It actually does what I want it to do and keeps doing it continuously. I thought about switching to Archon and realized I’d probably like it even less than Apex.

I’ve actually seriously considered getting into the market. I don’t actually think it would take that big an investment to develop and were knee deep in the relevant talent in the oilfield so I can get the techies together at work.

 

[Mattrg02]

I just mean their wireless control is easier than director. That said, the industry really could use someone who gets the idea we don’t all want to be tech geeks just to get a light to work.

I don’t use Apex because it’s too much trouble. Every new update is a war with my home network that I end up losing.

I switched back to DA because while it’s simple, it’s also simple. It actually does what I want it to do and keeps doing it continuously. I thought about switching to Archon and realized I’d probably like it even less than Apex.

I’ve actually seriously considered getting into the market. I don’t actually think it would take that big an investment to develop and were knee deep in the relevant talent in the oilfield so I can get the techies together at work.

Check out what others are doing with a raspberry pi. Arudino could be another option. Both use similar programming language as C, so should be easy enough to do.

 

[SaltwaterAq Verified Sponsor]

This is a GREAT thread to read. What Brands you buy is important, Where you buy them is also important. Consider MAP policies as well.

 

[Orcus Varuna]

@Orcus Varuna, Sounds like Epic

PointClickCare basically the sub-acute version of Epic

 

[Orcus Varuna]

What is AI doing? While I like the actual lights and the control it gives, it was a major pain to get them connected wirelessly. Then to get the master light to see the slave lights was a whole other challenge. That's the biggest issue if you read Android app reviews for AI.

If you have a secure router, and you don't use the routers basic default settings, you have a tough time. I had to actually use one of my other cell phones to get local access because my phone was locked down. They did a firmware update that improved some things but took away others.

AI is owned by Ecotech, right?

I think Neptune works a lot like the game industry. They make small profits on the unit (Apex or game console), but make boat loads off all the accessories you need to use with it (games/accessories for consoles and the hundred accessories Neptune sells for the Apex).

In regards to the new COR pumps, why is it that you must own an Apex to use the smaller one, but not the bigger one? Obviously the smaller one will fit more peoples' needs unless they have 120+ gallon tank, therefore requiring the controller. I think that was a mistake on Neptune's part. They excluded the mass market. I doubt people will buy the $700 controller just to use the $200 pump.

Yes AI is now owned by ecotech. Also, The parent slave problem is an issue. I run 4 AI lights and found no problems if you just set up each light independently as a parent fixture. Takes a few minutes longer to set up but does the trick and I have had no more issues in 2+ years with connectivity.

 

[amazongb]

Just a quick hint... When BRS runs those sales where preferred reefers get 10x's points... If you need 2 decently priced items, buy 1 and checkout and you get the points immediately. So then you can use those 10x's points on the 2nd purchase 5 seconds later. Doesn't work with MD because it takes anywhere from 24hrs to a week to get the points.

It was on July 4th or something, where they had the 10x's reward points and all Reef Octopus was on sale 10% off. I needed 2 VarioS-6 return pumps. Paid for the first pump, was given the reward points after checkout, then got $50 off the 2nd pump just from the rewards points a minute later. Then had another $50 of store credit for rewards points. Better than having $100 store credit and paying close to full price. Rather have the $50 off on a pump. Also got 2 free T-shirts because it was 2 separate purchases.

Definitely try to take advantage of those 10x's rewards points because you basically get a sale price on anything the store sells with the 2nd purchase.

Thanks for the tip!

 

[MnFish1]

Perhaps I should've titled it differently. Maybe not voting with our wallets, but supporting OVERPRICED equipment. Because when you pay for something that is overpriced, by a long shot, you're telling the manufacturer that you're ok with that price. Especially when year after year the quality drops and it seems that the general public are the beta testers.

That's in essence what I was getting at. Not the fact that people want high-end equipment. I do to, but it should be worth the price of admission. Pieces shouldn't need replacement in less than a year. I mean two MP60's, which is roughly $1,300, is around the price of a pool filter. That's not a justified price, imo.

This hobby is already expensive. But supporting those ridiculous prices doesn't help consuners, any of us.

Maybe you're wrong. Maybe the products you say are overpriced junk, other people value for reasons different than yours. Maybe not everyone has had a pump fail 5 days after the warranty expired and the company screwed them over.. My guess is that this doesn't happen often - and when it does my guess is that if you're polite, Echotech takes care of you (as well as the other manufacturers). To you it isn't 'worth the price of admission' - to others it is. I still don't understand this discussion - which may be more of a reflection on me than the discussion. I have some 'more expensive' brands, and some 'less expensive brands'. The couple less expensive power heads I've bought over time get replaced every year - and usually because of some kind of electrical problem. The more expensive brands have not had that problem.

I do have a question - for people who have had problems with magnets 'exploding'. The only way I can see this happening is if the magnet (the wet side) was dropped or damaged either in production or at the owner's home. Or are there other ways that this happens. I was not aware that magnets exploded without some kind of damage.

 

[MnFish1]

I really didn't need a lecture on capitalism. I'm a business owner and understand economics.

Skimmers aren't new technology.
Niether are controllers, or lighting.

I look at my race car then look at my reef tank. Same price? For real?

They come out with new heads. Same price. New cam technology, same price. New intake manifold, same price. New tire and suspension technology, same price. And I promise you these engineers are making a whole lot more than a skimmer engineer.

Don't even try to tell me this industry isn't over charging.

Yes I can afford anything this hobby has to sell 5 times over. But mama taught me better than that. That's why I can afford it. But willing to? That's an entire different approach.

It doesn't make me angry, it makes me sad. That's just the way I talk. I'm blunt and assertive. Saves time. I quite enjoyed your assumptions though.

When they actually come out with something new, not modified versions of something that's been around 20 plus years I'll agree with you. But haven't seen anything like that, other than the gyre or the new alkalinity controller, for 20 or more years.

You could actually create demand by making easier for people to get into the hobby. Rather than keeping them out.

Who says you have to buy a new style skimmer? Buy a less expensive one. I honestly dont get why people are here telling other people that their opinions are
stupid because they dont agree with their opinion. There are lots of improvements to controllers and lighting. The Apex 2016 is much more capable than the older versions. If someone wants to buy these things - why not? Same with lighting technology. I personally would never buy another metal halide. for example. I like the radions.

If all of this new equipment is worthless as you're sugggesting, why are people able to have the type of systems they do now - as compared to 20 years ago. I guarantee you - the advances over the last 20 years are considerable.

Just as an example if I told you - wow - who would pay anything for a race car - thats not worth the money at any price, what would you think - its all about the value the buyer has for the things he/she buys. Im sure to you, your race car is worth every penny. To someone else - its worth nothing.

 

[FlyinBryan]

I really didn't need a lecture on capitalism. I'm a business owner and understand economics.

Skimmers aren't new technology.
Niether are controllers, or lighting.

I look at my race car then look at my reef tank. Same price? For real?

They come out with new heads. Same price. New cam technology, same price. New intake manifold, same price. New tire and suspension technology, same price. And I promise you these engineers are making a whole lot more than a skimmer engineer.

Don't even try to tell me this industry isn't over charging.

Yes I can afford anything this hobby has to sell 5 times over. But mama taught me better than that. That's why I can afford it. But willing to? That's an entire different approach.

It doesn't make me angry, it makes me sad. That's just the way I talk. I'm blunt and assertive. Saves time. I quite enjoyed your assumptions though.

When they actually come out with something new, not modified versions of something that's been around 20 plus years I'll agree with you. But haven't seen anything like that, other than the gyre or the new alkalinity controller, for 20 or more years.

You could actually create demand by making easier for people to get into the hobby. Rather than keeping them out.

I wish we could lower the price but it’s just the cost to make the product, and then overhead, plus a profit.

It’s an expensive hobby no way around it.

I applaud our manufacturers for all they do to keep this great hobby going! I appreciate their risk taking and providing great products!

Aren’t you thankful for the products they bring to market? I think they are the backbone of this hobby and so appreciate all they do to make this hobby work!

Hope it all works out for you and your business.

 

[FlyinBryan]

I personally buy the top brands always new never used. For me I will pay top dollar for quality because in the long run I found it actually saves me time, headache, and a lot of money.

I have equipment that is years old now and running as if it’s brand new.

I might have had an issue with one or two products but their customer service was really good and they got it replaced.

Hope this helps.

That’s how I vote..with my wallet..on top of the line products.

 

[RichReef]

If there wasn't a problem with the cost of some of this stuff, then why was this thread started?

I've never complained about the cost, until this thread.

I think it's a little naive to believe it's not happening in this hobby.

 

[MnFish1]

If there wasn't a problem with the cost of some of this stuff, then why was this thread started? I've never complained about the cost, until this thread. I think it's a little naive to believe it's not happening in this hobby.

This is an unsolvable debate. People that use android say apple is over priced and price gouging and that their stuff is not worth the money. Apple people say samsung and others are crap. And it has been going that way for years. What are you saying is 'happening'? Do you not think Jebao is not making a profit? Do you know that their margins are much lower than one of the 'high-priced' manufacturers? Besides anecdotes on both sides is there any real information to suggest that the quality is equal - but the prices of some are much higher? (when I say that I include ease of return and purchase, customer service, support, manuals, instructions, Options for different flow rates for pumps, ease of installation, product life, failure rate, etc.).

The thread was started because one person had an opinion. Several agree with him - several do not. Everyone wants lower prices on everything.

 

[NS Mike D]

The OP's Reef Octopus example fails to recognize the cost of the engineering and R&D to shrink the footprint of the skimmer and the value we put on the real estate under our tanks to fit all that equipment so that it doesn't ruin the visual beauty of the DT. There is more to costs per unit than merely the raw goods that go into making a product.

It's the economic premium incentive that makes companies spend money to improve design. Then the second they do make a better product, their market is undercut by reverse engineered and DIY competition putting pressure to cut costs on the original product and roll out another more expensive version.

If one wants a smaller skimmer that will do the job of a larger skimmer, one will have to pay a premium. The faster the market rolls off viable knock offs, the higher that initial premium has to be.

 

[Forsaken77]

The OP's Reef Octopus example fails to recognize the cost of the engineering and R&D to shrink the footprint of the skimmer and the value we put on the real estate under our tanks to fit all that equipment so that it doesn't ruin the visual beauty of the DT. There is more to costs per unit than merely the raw goods that go into making a product.

It's the economic premium incentive that makes companies spend money to improve design. Then the second they do make a better product, their market is undercut by reverse engineered and DIY competition putting pressure to cut costs on the original product and roll out another more expensive version.

If one wants a smaller skimmer that will do the job of a larger skimmer, one will have to pay a premium. The faster the market rolls off viable knock offs, the higher that initial premium has to be.

No. It wasn't a smaller skimmer producing the results of a bigger skimmer. It was the SAME exact skimmer! One just had the pump inside the body, which was considered less efficient compared to external pumps outside the body (don't know if it still is), but everything was the exact same. To have a $200 price difference (on what is considered less efficient) just because the pump was moved inside the body is ridiculous. This also isn't a newer, high priced version of the external. It's just a different version, but same year, same size, same pump, same model. These skimmers are also not a new model btw. They came out years ago.

The body is the exact same except the space saver is ever so slightly taller because the pump was moved inside. If you don't think that $200 difference is taking advantage, then that's just naive. They have other skimmers with internal & external and there's no $200 price difference. There is no possible way to justify the price difference. Whether it's worth it to someone is irrelevant. I'm referring to the manufacturer charging that price for a negligible difference and I bet they lost a ton of sales because of it.

That was just an example. I went with a Deltec that will probably produce better than a cone anyway, for $450 less.

 

[FlyinBryan]

No. It wasn't a smaller skimmer producing the results of a bigger skimmer. It was the SAME exact skimmer! One just had the pump inside the body, which was considered less efficient compared to external pumps outside the body (don't know if it still is), but everything was the exact same. To have a $200 price difference (on what is considered less efficient) just because the pump was moved inside the body is ridiculous. This also isn't a newer, high priced version of the external. It's just a different version, but same year, same size, same pump, same model. These skimmers are also not a new model btw. They came out years ago.

The body is the exact same except the space saver is ever so slightly taller because the pump was moved inside. If you don't think that $200 difference is taking advantage, then that's just naive. They have other skimmers with internal & external and there's no $200 price difference. There is no possible way to justify the price difference. Whether it's worth it to someone is irrelevant. I'm referring to the manufacturer charging that price for a negligible difference and I bet they lost a ton of sales because of it.

That was just an example. I went with a Deltec that will probably produce better than a cone anyway, for $450 less.

Dude, come on. Please, let it go.

 

[Donovan Joannes]

USD600+ for a light and it's overpriced? That same light will cost me 5 times more or should I emphasize it will cost me a one month wages. One month salary!.

China... Here I come.

p/s: Seriously, this hobby can burn through your pocket IF you choose to buy top notch equipment with all the bells and whistles. The keyword is AFFORDABILITY. Buy according to your budget, and not because somebody says this thing is a magic wand in reefing. My weipro skimmer is as good as branded skimmer at 1/5th of the price. My light is as good as the "one month salary" light at 1/10th of the price (I need 2 of that expensive light for my tank). Remember, there is always an alternative in this hobby.

 

[HippieSmell]

All I know is there are a lot more choices regarding equipment today than there was 15 years ago. You can complain about the price of some equipment (the Reef Octopus comment by the OP made me laugh, as that used to be the cheap Chinese equipment), but come on, this is a luxury hobby, not medical equipment.

 

[NS Mike D]

No. It wasn't a smaller skimmer producing the results of a bigger skimmer. It was the SAME exact skimmer! One just had the pump inside the body, which was considered less efficient compared to external pumps outside the body (don't know if it still is), but everything was the exact same. To have a $200 price difference (on what is considered less efficient) just because the pump was moved inside the body is ridiculous. This also isn't a newer, high priced version of the external. It's just a different version, but same year, same size, same pump, same model. These skimmers are also not a new model btw. They came out years ago.

The body is the exact same except the space saver is ever so slightly taller because the pump was moved inside. If you don't think that $200 difference is taking advantage, then that's just naive. They have other skimmers with internal & external and there's no $200 price difference. There is no possible way to justify the price difference. Whether it's worth it to someone is irrelevant. I'm referring to the manufacturer charging that price for a negligible difference and I bet they lost a ton of sales because of it.

That was just an example. I went with a Deltec that will probably produce better than a cone anyway, for $450 less.

I looked up the skimmers. the older models of the elite are listed for $100 less than the newer identical models. The newer models are $100 more and have the VarioS DC Pump. Thus, there is a $200 difference between the external pump design with the older pump and the internal with the new pump with $100 difference being related to the VarioS DC Pump. Octo claims these pumps are specifically made for protein skimmers.

as for lost sales, seems the sales that would be lost would have been to people who could not fit the regular skimmer in their sump, but now for $100 more (apples to apples) can buy the smaller foot print model.

fwiw, my skimmer cost under $100 and my nitrates were 0 a few days ago, but then again, I rarely spend more than $20 on a coral. If I was spending $1000 on a bounce I might have a different view of my hardware choices.

 

[NS Mike D]

@Forsaken77 , the funny thing is that we both live in Long Island. If there was an argument for unjustified over paying, it's not our skimmers, it's our homes - which cannot be justified by rational economics