We Should Vote With Our Wallets!!!

[Rakie]

That's something completely different. If there is only 1 product that offers a capability, there's no competition.

But there are gyres that move a heck of a lot more water than an MP60 does, even if it's rated at a lower gph.

That's something I've found issue with. EcoTech dramatically overestimates their vortech pumps GPH. Their flow pattern is weak, streamlined and not very wide or diffused -- It's much better at the mp40/60 size, but the mp10 is too narrow for me.

I found this out first hand when 2 mp10's at their max setting weren't moving even close to enough water for my tank, which is basically a 50 cube. I put in a single Tunze 6015, which is the smallest powerhead they make, producing only 400gph (more than 1000gph less than an MP10) and side by side, it destroyed BOTH the mp10's. I sold both mp10's instantly and moved on. Second best decision I've made in the hobby.

EcoTech makes a nice light that I stand behind. I don't stand behind anything else they've produced, and neither do they -- or the most expensive items in the hobby would have a real warranty.

 

[Rakie]

I am in the other camp and tend to buy premium products because I trust their quality control more then say jebao with the 1000’s of dollars in livestock I keep.

That's the thing though. The amount of locals in my area who've had EcoTech pumps bust and start rusting on them is staggering. It's not one or two, it's actually quite a lot of people. The guy I got my mp10's from sold them to me with new wetsides, because BOTH of his busted and started rusting in the tank.

My estimation for the value of a product is how a company stands behind it.

Look at Tunze. 5 year warranty. I've seen roger personally help friends who purchased used equipment get warranty help, I've seen him help on items outside of warranty. You know as well as I do, ecotech would never do that. You get a one year warranty with the most expensive items in the hobby, and that warranty is up to interpretation at that -- Not a blanket "something goes wrong, we fix it".

Other companies stand behind their products, and workmanship. AND cost less. AND work better. AND last longer. To me, that speaks volumes. If EcoTech went out of their way to help their customers with a problem, I'd cut them all the slack in the world. But they don't.

And lastly -- I'm using EcoTech as an example, yes, but they're far from the only company who does stuff like this. Just one of the many.

 

[Servillius]

That is exactly what I was saying. I clarified this a few times over the thread that the title wasn't the best choice of words. If you notice I happen to post a lot in the middle of the night (when I can't sleep). So choice of words aren't always the best, but I felt it at least got the point across. It wasn't what I felt the product was worth, it was what's the quality of the product that's making it worth that with a bunch of issues?

I don't understand how anything could come across as judgemental when I wasn't criticizing anyone's choice, but a general theme of rising prices and lower quality across the industry, using Ecotech as a single example. I was just saying that people should basically be more aware of what shortcomings are associated with a lot of "premium" products, that I have admittedly bought myself, and not continue to support those products (not brands). If I bought the exact products I was referring to, how is that being judgemental of anyone's choice?

Maybe the context came across wrong? I don't know. The sheeple thing was because it seems this industry has become indoctrinated that certain brands (not individual products) will give the best experience, regardless of things to the contrary.

If anything I said came across as judgemental, that wasn't the intention.

I'll use Sony as an example. Sony has always charged high prices for their tv's. They used to be a premium brand, but for decades still commanded a premium price with little, to no innovation, and often implementing features years after the competition. Only up until recently has Sony went back to being a premium tv manufacturer, but all along Sony was charging high prices and a lot of people would buy the inferior tv because it was from Sony. Thinking that because Sony made it that it was top notch.

That's what I was trying to convey. That just because a certain company makes something doesn't mean it's worthy of its asking price if there are better functioning products of the same class available that will suit your needs. For people to be aware of this. Because not everybody researches everything.

My bad if it came across not how it was intended.

You’re quite right. Some companies let quality slip for different reasons but the most irritating is when they’re just trying to squeeze the brand for cash.

We don’t see a lot of this in our hobby (definitely some, but thankfully not a lot) but if someone pays $10MM for a brand, they want to profit from it. Easiest way to do that is to cut costs. After a while the cost cutting is destroying the quality of the product, but you’re making your money on the legacy sales. I much prefer buying from a company with an owner that is directly committed to the product. There are lots of examples out there, but Germans have several. Royal Exclusif for instance.

I think the world of our friends at Ecotech, but there are definitely some things they could reconsider. The whole wireless control setup for instance. You own AI; go see what they’re doing? I own several Vectras. They’re good pumps. They could be better. If so ever decide to build a closed loop however...

Anyway, I’m all for sharing stories around here. There is no doubt you are correct and some manufacturers (and distributors) need to be reminded they shouldn’t take the community for granted. We’re fairly unforgiving of problems, but we do pay well for the good stuff.

I really want an Abyzz pump just because it seems so over the top rediculous, but I’ll have to wait for a lottery win on that one!

 

[Servillius]

That's the thing though. The amount of locals in my area who've had EcoTech pumps bust and start rusting on them is staggering. It's not one or two, it's actually quite a lot of people. The guy I got my mp10's from sold them to me with new wetsides, because BOTH of his busted and started rusting in the tank.

My estimation for the value of a product is how a company stands behind it.

Look at Tunze. 5 year warranty. I've seen roger personally help friends who purchased used equipment get warranty help, I've seen him help on items outside of warranty. You know as well as I do, ecotech would never do that. You get a one year warranty with the most expensive items in the hobby, and that warranty is up to interpretation at that -- Not a blanket "something goes wrong, we fix it".

Other companies stand behind their products, and workmanship. AND cost less. AND work better. AND last longer. To me, that speaks volumes. If EcoTech went out of their way to help their customers with a problem, I'd cut them all the slack in the world. But they don't.

And lastly -- I'm using EcoTech as an example, yes, but they're far from the only company who does stuff like this. Just one of the many.

I’ve actually had them take care of me on out of warranty pumps. If their service is inconsistent they need to examine that or they’ll lose customers. A lot of us have really great experience with them. It’s a shame if that’s not always true.

I do think Tunze is ultimately just flawless though. Ecotech would definitely learn something from their 5 year warranty.

 

[Radman73]

For the most part, I'm a buy once cry once buyer. I'll pay top dollar for equipment but I research and expect it to either last a very long time or that its performance warrants the price. What I will NOT do, is just buy cheap junk because it's cheap. I usually wait for sales to buy equipment. I had my Aquamaxx skimmer for my 220 for nearly two years before I finally used it in August. Same for the 220 itself actually. I had one AP700 for nearly a year before I used it. Got it 25% off.

I have started paying more attention to warranty length. As @Rakie mentions, Tunze has 5 year warranty's. My Fluval SP6 return has a 3 year warranty. My Stream 3's were bought in lieu of MP40's and the SP6 in lieu of a Vectra or other DC pump with much shorter warranties. I love Vortech pumps but am no longer convinced they're a quality product. So, you could say I am voting with my wallet, since we all do, and voted differently this time around.

 

[Rakie]

I’ve actually had them take care of me on out of warranty pumps. If their service is inconsistent they need to examine that or they’ll lose customers. A lot of us have really great experience with them. It’s a shame if that’s not always true.

I do think Tunze is ultimately just flawless though. Ecotech would definitely learn something from their 5 year warranty.

Man, I'm glad you were taken care of but that does suck.. I wish your experience were more typical. For me, and those I know who've dealt with them -- not much in the way of compassion for customers.

Tunze and Roger at Tunze is above and beyond to me. I've often heard the phrase "you can't pay for customer service like that" -- But when Tunze hired Roger they absolutely proved you can. Roger might be one of the best assets to any company in this industry. If every shop had a "roger" we'd love every brand out there.

To emphasize the point further -- How many of us know the names of people at any shop in general? Not too many.. But most of us know who Roger at Tunze is. That says a LOT.

 

[DSC reef]

Where did all the "jerks" come from. This site used to be so professional and helpfull. Guess I'll go check out RC again, but I doubt they are any better

What about your comment derailing a sale thread? That was pretty rude. I'd say reef2reef is top notch

 

[Rakie]

What about your comment derailing a sale thread? That was pretty rude.

Everyone is a bit of a jerk at times. The real Jerk is the guy who doesn't know he's a jerk.

#ProudJerk (ask @mdbannister)

 

[DSC reef]

Everyone is a bit of a jerk at times. The real Jerk is the guy who doesn't know he's a jerk.

#ProudJerk (ask @mdbannister)

My point was don't call out the members of this great forum when he was a jerk to a seller the other day.

 

[Rakie]

My point was don't call out the members of this great forum when he was a jerk to a seller the other day.

Yeah I know where you were going, just playing around a bit. And supporting your statement a bit too.

 

[DSC reef]

Yeah I know where you were going, just playing around a bit. And supporting your statement a bit too.

I appreciate it, gotta have some fun right.

 

[Rakie]

I appreciate it, gotta have some fun right.

Only thing that keeps me halfway sane haha

 

[RichReef]

It’s all about supply and demand. If I can sell a PS for $500 right on!! If I can add plastic to it, pay an engineer to design it, the plastic guy to recast a mold, and then pay all the people in between, and if I have to charge an extra $200 and there is a market demand that can and will pay that price, job well done!
It’s all about supply and demand, and everything in between.
Be thankful someone went through the trouble and took the risk to even make a design build and bring one to market. Be thankful one is even available in the style you’re looking for!!
You can’t come in here and then blast the guy because you can’t afford. Be grateful one is available.
You don’t know what that guy had to do to make that PS in the way you wanted it. It may look like ‘just a piece of plastic’ to you but see the beginning of my statement. There’s quite a bit that goes into it.
Ever made a chicken sandwich from scratch? I mean from scratch? From growing the ingredients along with raising the chicken and get the salt, from the ocean? It’d cost you close to $1500!
I can’t make a pencil. Any idea how many people earn a living making a pencil from start to finish? It’s quite a bit.
I would strongly recommend just a bit of economic understanding and free market capitalism first.
You can get angry and upset and blast this manufacturer away in here but you’re not helping anything. He’s got to feed his kids as well at the end of the day.

You can vote with your wallets but it’s not going to do any good. The market will have the final say. If I and others can buy that PS at the price he’s offering it, all the better.

Otherwise guys are not going to provide new products and our hobby will tank (pun intended) because someone started a crusade against them.

I really didn't need a lecture on capitalism. I'm a business owner and understand economics.

Skimmers aren't new technology.
Niether are controllers, or lighting.

I look at my race car then look at my reef tank. Same price? For real?

They come out with new heads. Same price. New cam technology, same price. New intake manifold, same price. New tire and suspension technology, same price. And I promise you these engineers are making a whole lot more than a skimmer engineer.

Don't even try to tell me this industry isn't over charging.

Yes I can afford anything this hobby has to sell 5 times over. But mama taught me better than that. That's why I can afford it. But willing to? That's an entire different approach.

It doesn't make me angry, it makes me sad. That's just the way I talk. I'm blunt and assertive. Saves time. I quite enjoyed your assumptions though.

When they actually come out with something new, not modified versions of something that's been around 20 plus years I'll agree with you. But haven't seen anything like that, other than the gyre or the new alkalinity controller, for 20 or more years.

You could actually create demand by making easier for people to get into the hobby. Rather than keeping them out.

 

[stevieduk]

It seems that most aquarium gear has gotten ridiculously overpriced over the past few years. I don't think we should buy into it. Even the premium brands like Ecotech, Neptune, Vertex, AI, and Maxspect have all had issues with quality control, yet command a premium price.

I'll give you an example... While looking for a skimmer for my 180 build I was considering the Reef Octopus Elite (which is never part of ANY sales btw). The internal model, with exterior pump, was what I wanted but wouldn't fit the sump chamber. The space saving version is $200 more. I opened a ticket to Reef Octopus asking if this space saver is gold plated and why an internal pump, inside the body, costs $200 more than a more efficient version with the external pump.

The response I got said that there's extra acrylic for the space saver pump. Yeah, maybe $20 more acrylic.

I feel we need to stop with brand recognition and supporting the blatant price gouging this industry is becoming so comfortable with as far as equipment goes. The markup on all of this gear is crazy, especially skimmers.

I feel we should buy what works at the cheapest price, not by brand, and teach these manufacturers that we will leave them standing there with their proverbial high priced junk in their hands.

The only way they will lower these prices are if people stop buying it. I can see lighting being a grey area, but a black box with better quality control would be just as good as a $700 light.

That's my rant. I feel most people should be able to experience this hobby and the price prohibits that for a lot of people.

you ought to live in the U.K my friend, the prices we have to pay are beyond extortionate , I think the term, Highway robbery, would sum it up.
When I started keeping marines 35 yrs ago ,we made a lot of the equipment ourselves, and I can see it going back to that eventually . all these companies will then have to dramatically reduce there prices or go bust. keeping fish or corals is supposed to be a hobby, NOT a thing for the privileged few. The equipment now has become like a fashion accessory, and the more people keep paying the more costly it will become

 

[Servillius]

I really didn't need a lecture on capitalism. I'm a business owner and understand economics.

Skimmers aren't new technology.
Niether are controllers, or lighting.

I look at my race car then look at my reef tank. Same price? For real?

They come out with new heads. Same price. New cam technology, same price. New intake manifold, same price. New tire and suspension technology, same price. And I promise you these engineers are making a whole lot more than a skimmer engineer.

Don't even try to tell me this industry isn't over charging.

Yes I can afford anything this hobby has to sell 5 times over. But mama taught me better than that. That's why I can afford it. But willing to? That's an entire different approach.

It doesn't make me angry, it makes me sad. That's just the way I talk. I'm blunt and assertive. Saves time. I quite enjoyed your assumptions though.

When they actually come out with something new, not modified versions of something that's been around 20 plus years I'll agree with you. But haven't seen anything like that, other than the gyre or the new alkalinity controller, for 20 or more years.

You could actually create demand by making easier for people to get into the hobby. Rather than keeping them out.

I think you’re ignoring two factors. First, this is a small market. Development costs, even for small upgrades, take a big bite out of price. Second, you’re focused on the basic tech at the heart of the tools. What matters to a hobbiest is performance. A skimmer sure is old tech, but one that stays really stable is worth more than one that doesn’t. Same tech, better engineering.

If this industry was, as an industry, overcharging, you would have a solid claim for anticompetitive behavior which could make you and a lawyer very rich. If, as is probable, they’re not colluding, then anyone overcharging would be getting squeezed out by someone doing the same thing for less. There are temporary, local reasons why this isn’t always true. Generally, over time, you’re just noticing the fact people need a bigger margin to stay in business selling aquarium gear because there are fewer buyers than other products and that those buyers care enough to tolorate the price in exchange for a selection.

 

[Mattrg02]

Plenty of advancements have been made. Just look at lightning. Led lighting is radically different than it was 10 years ago. The hydra26HD, rocking 90W and with a wireless controller all built into a very small form factor is a good example. Yes, it’s pricey, so would be a DIY led setup with the same features.

Want to see high prices? Just look at what Engineering consultants charge for basic work...

 

[Forsaken77]

You’re quite right. Some companies let quality slip for different reasons but the most irritating is when they’re just trying to squeeze the brand for cash.

We don’t see a lot of this in our hobby (definitely some, but thankfully not a lot) but if someone pays $10MM for a brand, they want to profit from it. Easiest way to do that is to cut costs. After a while the cost cutting is destroying the quality of the product, but you’re making your money on the legacy sales. I much prefer buying from a company with an owner that is directly committed to the product. There are lots of examples out there, but Germans have several. Royal Exclusif for instance.

I think the world of our friends at Ecotech, but there are definitely some things they could reconsider. The whole wireless control setup for instance. You own AI; go see what they’re doing? I own several Vectras. They’re good pumps. They could be better. If so ever decide to build a closed loop however...

Anyway, I’m all for sharing stories around here. There is no doubt you are correct and some manufacturers (and distributors) need to be reminded they shouldn’t take the community for granted. We’re fairly unforgiving of problems, but we do pay well for the good stuff.

I really want an Abyzz pump just because it seems so over the top rediculous, but I’ll have to wait for a lottery win on that one!

What is AI doing? While I like the actual lights and the control it gives, it was a major pain to get them connected wirelessly. Then to get the master light to see the slave lights was a whole other challenge. That's the biggest issue if you read Android app reviews for AI.

If you have a secure router, and you don't use the routers basic default settings, you have a tough time. I had to actually use one of my other cell phones to get local access because my phone was locked down. They did a firmware update that improved some things but took away others.

AI is owned by Ecotech, right?

I think Neptune works a lot like the game industry. They make small profits on the unit (Apex or game console), but make boat loads off all the accessories you need to use with it (games/accessories for consoles and the hundred accessories Neptune sells for the Apex).

In regards to the new COR pumps, why is it that you must own an Apex to use the smaller one, but not the bigger one? Obviously the smaller one will fit more peoples' needs unless they have 120+ gallon tank, therefore requiring the controller. I think that was a mistake on Neptune's part. They excluded the mass market. I doubt people will buy the $700 controller just to use the $200 pump.

 

[Forsaken77]

you ought to live in the U.K my friend, the prices we have to pay are beyond extortionate , I think the term, Highway robbery, would sum it up.
When I started keeping marines 35 yrs ago ,we made a lot of the equipment ourselves, and I can see it going back to that eventually . all these companies will then have to dramatically reduce there prices or go bust. keeping fish or corals is supposed to be a hobby, NOT a thing for the privileged few. The equipment now has become like a fashion accessory, and the more people keep paying the more costly it will become

Is it higher priced because you're paying taxes on importing products, or are the local selection prices high?

 

[McMullen]

@Orcus Varuna, Sounds like Epic

 

[NS Mike D]

I find it interesting that we'll spend a rent check on a skimmer and mortgage payments on corals, but unwilling to purchase a par meter - which is arguably just as important any test kit.

Over priced when backed up by years of quality and customer service eventually stops being called over priced and is hailed as a great brand. Just ask Weber and the owners of their grills.

Chinese doesn't always equates to inferior. i've heard it for decades in the fishing hobby, but it really hasn't hurt companies like Penn and their so called cheap reels still catch fish.

As an economic major and 3+ decades in finance, economic profit (what was described by the OP) is fleeting and in the long run, prices will gravitate to costs.