Well this is no good... (warning! wp-25 discussion ahead)
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geemanaz
Community Member
As far as I can see, all that has happened so far is that Tunze has sent threatening letters to various vendors claiming 1) that they have a valid patent that 2) is infringed by the WP-40. Both of these would have to be established in a trial (or administrative proceeding, for the ITC) before they could expect the US government (customs) to start seizing shipments.
Willz
Valuable Member
Why? The Tunze's are 3-4x the price. This pump has been a game changer for folks who like to reef, are on a budget, and want to maintain domestic tranquility. Tunze and Ecotech have enjoyed a near monopoly on wave-makers for years. It's OK for someone to copy them at this point (and copy is debatable, I see a ton of differences between my Tunze and my WP-40, most notably cost and the wave maker box). They have made back their R&D money and it's time for them to innovate to stay ahead of the curve. This is how the free market works in a global economy.
If people couldn't maintain a protection for their design for a limited time nobody would do R&D to develop better products. Copying somebody else's design with cheaper components and different programming is a disgusting business practice and should not be supported...they need to come up with their own design, is that to much to ask? Profiting from someone else's work so you don't have to do R&D and can undercut the price isn't free enterprise it is stealing.
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Gladfelter
Valuable Member
Frankly this is probably far from then end. A cease and desist order is simply a delay but doesn't stop them from starting a new company and slapping a new name on it. Then the process will start all over again.
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roblox84
Active Member
Wow, some company really did not like all the talking on the forums going on about the Chinese pumps.
But in all honesty this patent violation is merely just a ***** contest. When is the last time anyone ordered something from China and they actually declared the actual item and value on the customs form? I just ordered a triple doser and the customs form had "spare parts" for a value of $1 on it. So i wouldn't be too worried about it because the pumps will still be going through customs.
This is if the patent violation is real in the first place.
But in all honesty this patent violation is merely just a ***** contest. When is the last time anyone ordered something from China and they actually declared the actual item and value on the customs form? I just ordered a triple doser and the customs form had "spare parts" for a value of $1 on it. So i wouldn't be too worried about it because the pumps will still be going through customs.
This is if the patent violation is real in the first place.
majicmike
Active Member
The only thing that was copied was the basic look. These pumps out perform both the mp40 and the tunze pumps hands down. Do you think this would even be an issue if the the pump under performed? These two company are mitigating damage at this point and we will see new designed products within 6 months.
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tigrtraps
Community Member
China will find a way
Willz
Valuable Member
Heh, the 1% has spoken. You speak as if we are talking about people stealing from people. We aren't. We are talking about business. The people that I meet are definitely benefiting from having affordable wave making pumps. The ethics of whether it is better for a small group of shareholders to benefit or a large group of people who otherwise couldn't afford the hobby is a no brainer in my opinion.
Gladfelter
Valuable Member
Exactly. But also to the point of its performance, you might have something there. If it didn't work so well it would not be as big of a threat
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You've lost your mind If you think this pump outperforms and mp40 or tunze, it doesn't. It has similar functionality with a very similar physical pump design if not identical. It is not hard to design a new impeller and housing unit which is what they need to do. Tunze can not make the claim with out supporting evidence that there design has been copied. As far as outperforming an mp40 it can't touch it...the motor is still inside the tank, there is no wireless communication between pumps, and lights, the motor switch (simple on off) is not the same as the mp40 ramp up down modes, you have a single max flow that can be controlled by altering te power supply but you can not set a range of flows and have all of them. This is a decent pump but the bottom line is they used other peoples ideas and R&D to make a product they don't have to pay for R&D on so they can sell it a lot cheaper, in doing so they potentially have stolen people who might have purchased a product by a company that owns the R&D.
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redfishbluefish
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China has been using our patent system as a means of their next product build. It’s been this way for some time.
I’m no expert, but my guess is that this pump infringes on a DESIGN PATENT. This covers the “look” of a product and are typically circumvented by slightly changing the look of the product. The problem here is that these new pumps look just like a Tunze. So change the look and you’re good to go.
The other point is that it is China…..they’ll continue doing whatever they wish to do. They find some other means to have these shipped into the US…..ebay or whatever.
And for those that have commented on the years of coverage of a patent….it’s 17 years….. that could be extended to 20 or 21 years.
I’m no expert, but my guess is that this pump infringes on a DESIGN PATENT. This covers the “look” of a product and are typically circumvented by slightly changing the look of the product. The problem here is that these new pumps look just like a Tunze. So change the look and you’re good to go.
The other point is that it is China…..they’ll continue doing whatever they wish to do. They find some other means to have these shipped into the US…..ebay or whatever.
And for those that have commented on the years of coverage of a patent….it’s 17 years….. that could be extended to 20 or 21 years.
Definitely not the 1% there guy, i'm a college student. You say the other companies need to be innovative but if other companies are stealing someone's R&D and taking the profits how do you suppose the company can pay for R&D to be innovative? Companies are in business to make money, they stop making money they move to a new market or are no longer a company. Sounds to me like you are bein greedy and support it because it benefits you, even of the product was developed in an unethical way. How much profit margin do you think is there go the company making the jaebo? They made these in china with no building standards by reverse engineering a tunze, it literally probably costs them less then a dollar to make it and the cost of a couple tunze powerheads as r&d cost...probably well over 1000% profit margin.
All they have to do is take their 3d scan of a tunze powerhead and make some changes to the housing and impeller and they are good to go, they just need to be big enough changes to not seem like a slightly modified copy.
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majicmike
Active Member
Do you have one of these pumps? You are talking about function not how much a pump will flow. I have 2 mp40s and 1 wp40. I posted my tunze wave box for sale after 5 min with this pump. This pump out performs both hands down period. But you are right it does not have the gadgets the mps do so how is that a copy?
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k2parkstar
Z&P Snob
Business support people, no business then you have no jobs.
k2parkstar
Z&P Snob
The wp series is a cheap knock off and will be worthless in 6 months. You always get what you pat for.
First off its tunze with the claim, not ecotech so I don't know why you keep bringing up mp40s. Second comparing an open impeller powerhead to a wavebox is like comparing a dog to a cardboard box, they are not the same. Tunze is claiming they are copying the design of there powerheads not the wavebox. Now you are saying useful functionality does not weigh in performance comparison, but the adjustable speeds are directly related to tr performance and the build quality the motor...a motor has to be of quality to handle this type of cyclic loading. And the ability for the powerheads to communicate wirelessly is directly relate to the performance of the programming and microprocessor, or is performance only based on one parameter? What is the rated maximum flow of this powerhead and the mp40 again?
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majicmike
Active Member
Willz
Valuable Member
Actually, innovation is America's hallmark. If we lose that edge we can't compete in a global economy. Competition spurs innovation. No innovation, then no jobs. Patent laws are government interference plain and simple. You like the free market, well here it is. Everyone hates "big government" until it's something that they feel passionate about. Kind of funny thing about that, actually.
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