Well this is no good... (warning! wp-25 discussion ahead)

[bct15]

Quick google search stateside flowrstes

Wp40 3400 gph
Mp40 3200+ gph
Tunze Turbelle 6105 3400 gph

So if you are only comparing one performance aspect as the total performance then the manufacturer specs of the wp40 are higher than the mp40 but match the tunze exactly (imagine that). However only comparing one design feature performance as overall performance is not how they teach us engineers. Performance would also relate to onboard processor performance, durability and reliability, design life, programming speed and perfmance, component quality, and many more things that this powerhead will not even come close to touching.


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[bct15]

Actually, innovation is America's hallmark. If we lose that edge we can't compete in a global economy. Competition spurs innovation. No innovation, then no jobs. Patent laws are government interference plain and simple. You like the free market, well here it is. Everyone hates "big government" until it's something that they feel passionate about. Kind of funny thing about that, actually.

Competition spurs innovation if there is room for profit, if the competition is using your innovation that cost you a lot of money to develop and they sell the same product for 1/4 the price. Then the profit margin is gone and the company doing the innovation will cease to exhist as they have spent all of there money to do the competitions research.


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[majicmike]

Quick google search stateside flowrstes

Wp40 3400 gph
Mp40 3200+ gph
Tunze Turbelle 6105 3400 gph

So if you are only comparing one performance aspect as the total performance then the manufacturer specs of the wp40 are higher than the mp40 but match the tunze exactly (imagine that). However only comparing one design feature performance as overall performance is not how they teach us engineers. Performance would also relate to onboard processor performance, durability and reliability, design life, programming speed and perfmance, component quality, and many more things that this powerhead will not even come close to touching.


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Do you have one of these pumps?

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[bct15]

Whether I have a pump or not does not come into effect on my debate f performance...I simply stated facts and manufacturer claims to back my arguments. To be fully honest I don't own a tunze or a jaebo which makes me a completely impartial participant in the discussions. However I am an engineer and have done several design comparisons, reverse engineering, and performance reviews. I'm simply speaking form a design professional point of view...ive seen the videos of this thing performing and it's nothing to jump hoops through over, i can do the same thing with a large koralia on a wave maker or timer. What is exciting about the pump is the functionality and perceived performance at that price point. The question that most people have is the build quality...as an engineer I know about Chinese products (they have no standards in china) and personally am waiting at less a year of these being out before I buy one, I have been going back and forth with I have as a backup if one of my mp40s die. BTW most people who buy mp40s don't buy them for the on/off modes, they buy them for the extra functionality and turbulent flow modes, which ecotech shares this programming to developers.


Can it completely replace a tunze or mp40? No. Can it work as a low cost substitute for people just starting or that don't have the budget for a higher priced powerhead? Yes... But there are other options like koralias, and several wave maker manufacturers.

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[Willz]

Competition spurs innovation if there is room for profit, if the competition is using your innovation that cost you a lot of money to develop and they sell the same product for 1/4 the price. Then the profit margin is gone and the company doing the innovation will cease to exhist as they have spent all of there money to do the competitions research.

Not historically, but hey, who is keeping track of facts? There is always a fair lag between innovation and reverse engineering copy cats. It is enough time for the innovator to make a cozy profit and then the idea is fair game on the open market for whoever can do it cheapest. Would you prefer more government interference in your life or less? I personally like my roads, a safety net for the less fortunate, and public schools, but they can keep their nose out of all other aspects of my life. Just my $.02.

 

[bct15]

Not historically, but hey, who is keeping track of facts? There is always a fair lag between innovation and reverse engineering copy cats. It is enough time for the innovator to make a cozy profit and then the idea is fair game on the open market for whoever can do it cheapest. Would you prefer more government interference in your life or less? I personally like my roads, a safety net for the less fortunate, and public schools, but they can keep their nose out of all other aspects of my life. Just my $.02.

That fair lag you mentioned is the expiration time of a patent...which is supposedly being infringed upon. You are saying a company has more of a right to unethically make a profit on somebody else's work than the company that did the work does?

And historically, the greatest innovations are always in the areas with the greatest profit potential.


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[majicmike]

Whether I have a pump or not does not come into effect on my debate f performance...I simply stated facts and manufacturer claims to back my arguments. To be fully honest I don't own a tunze or a jaebo which makes me a completely impartial participant in the discussions. However I am an engineer and have done several design comparisons, reverse engineering, and performance reviews. I'm simply speaking form a design professional point of view...ive seen the videos of this thing performing and it's nothing to jump hoops through over, i can do the same thing with a large koralia on a wave maker or timer. What is exciting about the pump is the functionality and perceived performance at that price point. The question that most people have is the build quality...as an engineer I know about Chinese products (they have no standards in china) and personally am waiting at less a year of these being out before I buy one, I have been going back and forth with I have as a backup if one of my mp40s die. BTW most people who buy mp40s don't buy them for the on/off modes, they buy them for the extra functionality and turbulent flow modes, which ecotech shares this programming to developers.


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So you have no real world experience? You have a bunch of numbers on paper. I have all 4 types of pumps,tunze pump mp40s tunze wave box and a wp40 the wave box made 1/4 wave in my tank. The mp 40 do have a function thats why they are still in my tank. The 1 wp40 makes a 2 inch wave in my 300 gallon tank fighting my mp 40s so ya it over powers my mp 40s. So please until you have real world knowledge dont have a closed mind to something.

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[Willz]

That fair lag you mentioned is the expiration time of a patent...which is supposedly being infringed upon. You are saying a company has more of a right to unethically make a profit on somebody else's work than the company that did the work does?

And historically, the greatest innovations are always in the areas with the greatest profit potential.

Companies don't have ethics. It is just a company. You are anthropomorphizing human attributes to non-human companies. The only moral imperative of a company is to make money.

 

[ebushrow]

Companies don't have ethics. It is just a company. You are anthropomorphizing human attributes to non-human companies. The only moral imperative of a company is to make money.

+1..

 

[bct15]

So you have no real world experience? You have a bunch of numbers on paper. I have all 4 types of pumps,tunze pump mp40s tunze wave box and a wp40 the wave box made 1/4 wave in my tank. The mp 40 do have a function thats why they are still in my tank. The 1 wp40 makes a 2 inch wave in my 300 gallon tank fighting my mp 40s so ya it over powers my mp 40s. So please until you have real world knowledge dont have a closed mind to something.

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So you're basing your professional performance comparison simply on your eyeballs seeing a 2 inch wave in your tank with no empirical evidence to substantiate it? I'm not close minded to anything, I look at facts. There are no facts to support that this powerhead is a better product and outperforms the others "hands down" as you put it. I'd like to see a real performance evaluation of each of these powerheads that are a year old with constant use. I've already seen reports of components not working well right out of the box, photo sensor, which if that is any clue to the build and component quality that the outlook is bleak to say the least. I base my discussion on empirical data, not on what some people see. I've seen videos of these making waves on YouTube and like unsaid it is nothing do be impressed about, that can be done with any powerhead hooked up to a wave controller (a box that switches a bin controllable powerhead on and off). Again, I don't know what you are comparing this thing to the tunze wavebox, it is not the same thing.


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[ebushrow]

Definitely not the 1% there guy, i'm a college student. You say the other companies need to be innovative but if other companies are stealing someone's R&D and taking the profits how do you suppose the company can pay for R&D to be innovative? Companies are in business to make money, they stop making money they move to a new market or are no longer a company. Sounds to me like you are bein greedy and support it because it benefits you, even of the product was developed in an unethical way. How much profit margin do you think is there go the company making the jaebo? They made these in china with no building standards by reverse engineering a tunze, it literally probably costs them less then a dollar to make it and the cost of a couple tunze powerheads as r&d cost...probably well over 1000% profit margin

All they have to do is take their 3d scan of a tunze powerhead and make some changes to the housing and impeller and they are good to go, they just need to be big enough changes to not seem like a slightly modified copy.



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Just a point to not get into another ******* match...but if you are a college student .... You are not an engineer....you may be studying to be one....but you are not one until you graduate and have real life work experience. Just a point of fact...college gives you a wonderful view of how business should be ...not what it is.
Remember, Chevy,dodge,Toyota, Honda, Kia ....etc are all the product of reverse engineering from Fords combustion engine design...which was probably either purchased or reverse engineered from someone else...

Also I believe that the magic number is 10% differences between products means its not infringement. I remember that from somewhere.

 

[bct15]

Companies don't have ethics. It is just a company. You are anthropomorphizing human attributes to non-human companies. The only moral imperative of a company is to make money.

An entire part of the exam for my engineering licensure was about ethical situations. The company itself does not have ethics, but the people running the company are expected to operate their business in an ethical manner. When I say unethical, I am referring to the underlying operations of that company not the company itself.

First you say companies can copy designs, then you say companies should be alotted time to make a profit before their designs are copied, so which is it? And before you say companies can't have designs because a company is not a human and can't design anything, I am referring to the designs the company engineers come up with to benefit the company and hence forth become property of the company.


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[majicmike]

So you're basing your professional performance comparison simply on your eyeballs seeing a 2 inch wave in your tank with no empirical evidence to substantiate it? I'm not close minded to anything, I look at facts. There are no facts to support that this powerhead is a better product and outperforms the others "hands down" as you put it. I'd like to see a real performance evaluation of each of these powerheads that are a year old with constant use. I've already seen reports of components not working well right out of the box, photo sensor, which if that is any clue to the build and component quality that the outlook is bleak to say the least. I base my discussion on empirical data, not on what some people see. I've seen videos of these making waves on YouTube and like unsaid it is nothing do be impressed about, that can be done with any powerhead hooked up to a wave controller (a box that switches a bin controllable powerhead on and off). Again, I don't know what you are comparing this thing to the tunze wavebox, it is not the same thing.


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No matter what unless I agree with you you will find some fact on paper to use as a rebuttal. Its funny I knew you where goung to school for engineering before you said a thing. I argue with them all day at work to. Good luck to you in your life

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[Torx]

Hrmm, this thread is not going the direction I was hoping. Was hoping to learn about the suit, not a product review and members agreeing opinions on each others intelligence. Unsubscribing.

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[bct15]

Just a point to not get into another ******* match...but if you are a college student .... You are not an engineer....you may be studying to be one....but you are not one until you graduate and have real life work experience. Just a point of fact...college gives you a wonderful view of how business should be ...not what it is.
Remember, Chevy,dodge,Toyota, Honda, Kia ....etc are all the product of reverse engineering from Fords combustion engine design...which was probably either purchased or reverse engineered from someone else...

Also I believe that the magic number is 10% differences between products means its not infringement. I remember that from somewhere.

I am an engineer, graduates and licensed (though license is engineering in training because I have not taken the PE yet)...worked in Huntsville in R&D and then missile and space division of a company that will go unnamed. I am now a college student working on my PhD solving an engineering problem for again an unnamed company as my dissertation.


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[Willz]

Again, I don't know what you are comparing this thing to the tunze wavebox, it is not the same thing.

Ipso facto you are contradicting the whole "infringing on copyright/patent" argument. Which I believe was the point of this thread.

Also, what is more moral: a company making even more money, or more people being able to afford this hobby? I would posit the latter. And yes it is selfish, but it is also the correct answer morally. A decision that can go one way or the other and one way benefits a small group of people and the other option benefits the larger group is always correctly answered by benefiting the most people.

Copy cats have always happened, whether it is Walt Disney or the Datsun Z cars. It doesn't kill the original. It's flattering and there will always be die hard purists that will keep them in business. What kills innovation is when companies get choke hold patents on good ideas and then no one else can modify and improve on the good ideas out there. I'm all about open source and competition.

Let's help the consumers (e.g.: you and I), we don't need to worry about companies, they are intrinsically selfish....

 

[bct15]

No matter what unless I agree with you you will find some fact on paper to use as a rebuttal. Its funny I knew you where goung to school for engineering before you said a thing. I argue with them all day at work to. Good luck to you in your life

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I meet people all the time that think they more about a product than the people who designed it. Believe it or not, when I was practicing under full time employment I was the designer, builder and service man of the products I designed, I'm not the guy in the office with no real world experience.

I'm not disagreeing with you fully, I'm just saying that there needs to be facts to back up the claim that such and such powerhead is better. To be completely honest there is not enough information right now to say what is better...A personal perception of better performance is an opinion not a fact, you have yours and I have mine...I just asked go you to give some backing data.

Lastly I'm not in shook for engineering, I'm in school for material science...I'm done with engineering.


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[skinz78]

Hrmm, this thread is not going the direction I was hoping. Was hoping to learn about the suit, not a product review and members agreeing opinions on each others intelligence. Unsubscribing.

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Agreed, can we get this back on track please?

 

[Willz]

The company itself does not have ethics, but the people running the company are expected to operate their business in an ethical manner.

Right, expected to. But in the real world people don't do what is expected. They do whatever they think they can get away with and still make money.

 

[Dsdaley77]

This is rediculous!!! Stop arguing people. The pump is different enough that this will pass. Did they steal the design? Who cares, it's just speculation anyways.


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