Well this is no good... (warning! wp-25 discussion ahead)

[sanchoy]

Competition among sellers will only benefit the consumers. Personally i see nothing wrong with what Jebao did. They are not the same exact pump. Jebao provides a completely different approach as far as water movement compared to Tunze. In hindsight, Tunze is just upset they no longer can gouge the saltwater market with the high prices on their pumps. Why would you buy a Tunze when you can get a better performance pump from Jebao.

IN regards to the debate MP40 vs WP40. I own both pumps, and WP40 hands down is more powerful as far as creating movement and waves. MP40 only has the extra control syncing abilities, but the WP40 can create tidal waves in most large tanks. MP40 will require several pumps to achieve what WP40 will do. To whomever said MP40 were more powerful, i question your honesty.

 

[redfishbluefish]

Patents only become "public domain" if they aren't renewed. Only the original patent owner can renew and can renew as many times as wanted, infinitum...

This is not true! Yes, there is a yearly “maintance” fee, that if not paid, the patent goes away.

However, a patent does not last forever. Dependent on the type of patent, it is between 14 and 20 years. That’s it! If this Tunze patent is a DESIGN PATENT, which I’m guessing it is (and more difficult to defend), it only has a life of 14 years (which possibly could be extended to 17).



EDIT TO ADD: Directly from the USPTO website

How long does patent protection last?

For applications filed on or after June 8, 1995, utility and plant patents are granted for a term which begins with the date of the grant and usually ends 20 years from the date you first applied for the patent subject to the payment of appropriate maintenance fees for a utility patent. There are no maintenance fees for plant patents . Design patents last 14 years from the date you are granted the patent. No maintenance fees are required for design patents.
Note: Patents in force on June 8, 1995 and patents issued thereafter on applications filed prior to June 8, 1995 automatically have a term that is the greater of the twenty year term discussed above or seventeen years from the patent grant.

 

[bucksfan1976]

My outlook on this is this

I have spoke to Roger at Tunze in the past, I own several smaller Tunze pumps. However all Jebao has to do it slightly change the look of the pump and there is nothing anyone can do. The biggest thing I think is that they see this pump as a overall threat to their bottom line. Some people have to do this on a budget. These pumps were a way for people to get that wave action that they normally could not afford otherwise. Here are my thoughts on each of the major pumps

Tunze

Pros
- Tons of different options for pumps
- Lasts forever
- Great flow pattern
- Can angle the pumps in the direction you want
- Great customer service

Cons:
- cost
- Not all pumps are controllable
- Need to purchase a controller seperate


Ecotech

Pros:
- Great Flow Pattern
- Excellent Customer service
- Comes with controller
- Can be linked to other Ecotech Devices

Cons:
- cost
- Inability to angle the powerhead in a specific direction



Jebao

Pros:
- Cost
- Ability to angle
- comes with a controller
- customer service is pretty responsive to inquiries
- adapted to customer demands (with new adjustable power supply and better dampering pieces)

Cons:
- ability to link to other jebao pumps
- ability to connect to all controllers
- shipping time


So my biggest thing is that its simply this product is hurting the bottom line of other pump Manfacturers. It shows you can make a decent (so far) wave making device that will not break the bank. Again this is NOT bashing anyone or any product. I have owned all of these pumps and currently run a WP-40 and Tunze pumps. Its just my 2 cents.

 

[Dsdaley77]

It's just a scare tactic people!!!!!

Since when has China ever cared about US patent law? THEY DON't!!!! It's US law and they are not required to follow it. They can sell anything they want to us and the US government can't do anything about it until it goes through the legal system. Then if packages are marked properly, customs will seize. BUT........ That is not whats happening here. The pumps are clearly similar but a ripoff???? I don't think so. As I stated previously, companies do this all the time to try and scare other companies out of affecting their corporate wallets.

Now people in the US reselling these have problems, but that's not my concern as I am a hobbyist and want these for personal use.

That is all..... Continue speculation and rumor spreading


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[cparka23]

Agreed with redfishbluefish. On the surface, this appears to be a design patent infringement. Unless something internally was copied, the issue is that the "look and feel" of Tunze is being used to sell these pumps. It doesn't matter at all what the performance numbers are or how much better off the consumer will be with competition. These are the rules to play by in the US and around the much of the world.

Forget the America vs. China issue for a minute. If Chevy comes out with a car that looks exactly like a 2013 Ford Mustang, you can bet that there will be problems. A person who claims Chevy has the right to do it because it's better for the consumer would find it hard to be taken seriously. There is a design that Tunze is well-known for, and another company that allegedly copies it will have to show that the design isn't uniquely Tunze's.

 

[Jcouch]

4hxry

 

[gmoney243]

Personally i have owned mp40s , sold them because not powerfull enough in a long tank and the noise, now i currently on a tunze 6105 and a jebo wp40. The tunze definately out performs the wp40 but the wp40 is way better priced. Also the wp40 has some performance issues addressed in many other threads such as clicking or not spinning if not positioned just right in the harness. The tunze is definitely a superior product and for the price it shoud be, they also look nearly identical so i understand if tunze is sueing them. Ive had several peope come.over and think both pumps were the same brand untill i told them otherwise.

 

[bucksfan1976]

You know whats funny I hopped on another forum and people are bashing Tunze for this, wouldnt the better thing for them to have done was maybe not threaten vendors and just quietly delt with it in court. Even though I dont think there is a leg to stand on in this matter, It would be years before customs would hop in and stop the import of them because a court has not ruled on anything so there is nothing to enforce.

 

[redtop03]

I don't blame Tunze at all if this is the case. Come up with your own pump design.

yea really,I'd like to see 'em make a pump where the motor is on the outside of the tank and the propeller is on the inside of the tank and not need a hole in the tank to do that with,maybe connect the 2 halves via magnetism LOL sounds like a really cool idea to me

 

[gmoney243]

yea really,I'd like to see 'em make a pump where the motor is on the outside of the tank and the propeller is on the inside of the tank and not need a hole in the tank to do that with,maybe connect the 2 halves via magnetism LOL sounds like a really cool idea to me

Nah that would be to noisey

 

[revhtree]

yea really,I'd like to see 'em make a pump where the motor is on the outside of the tank and the propeller is on the inside of the tank and not need a hole in the tank to do that with,maybe connect the 2 halves via magnetism LOL sounds like a really cool idea to me

Better get a patent on that!

 

[CUNAReefer]

I just got two WP40s in the mail today... The pumps were purchased off of Ebay for $105 each. I removed all of my Tunzes (6105, 6305, Nano WB) to test out the wave capability of the pumps... Within seconds of plugging in the pump, I reached my conclusion. The WP40s are by far the STRONGEST pumps I have ever used. As a long term user of Tunze products, I have to admit that these pumps are a true threat to Tunze and Vortech. I now understand why they want to stop the sales of these pumps. If these pumps stand the test of time... I will never buy another Tunze product again.

 

[Engloid]

China has been using our patent system as a means of their next product build. It’s been this way for some time.

Yes, and in many cases, they will buy old design drawings from companies. Many of the Chinese motorcycles are copies of old designs from Hondas.
The Chinese don't care about patents at all...now way, no how.

I’m no expert, but my guess is that this pump infringes on a DESIGN PATENT. This covers the “look†of a product and are typically circumvented by slightly changing the look of the product. The problem here is that these new pumps look just like a Tunze. So change the look and you’re good to go.

Something else I haven't read mention of in this thread yet is that it could also have to do with the wave controller. Perhaps it's an identical remake of a Tunze patented design. People are also comparing it to KNOWN Tunze products. They may have many patents that they have never (or may never) even put into production.

The other point is that it is China…..they’ll continue doing whatever they wish to do. They find some other means to have these shipped into the US…..ebay or whatever.

Yes....innovative, is one word that fits it.

And for those that have commented on the years of coverage of a patent….it’s 17 years….. that could be extended to 20 or 21 years.

Pretty close. It's actually 20yrs: Patents

The wp series is a cheap knock off and will be worthless in 6 months. You always get what you pat for.

I'm betting that in 6 months, I will still be kicking a pretty nice flow in my tank...regardless of what the company does about any patent issues.

I'm simply speaking form a design professional point of view...ive seen the videos of this thing performing and it's nothing to jump hoops through over, i can do the same thing with a large koralia on a wave maker or timer.

I have a large Korallia, and a wavemaker...and they do not compare at all. The Korallia on a wavemaker is noisy. Since they have the problems with starting up backwards, and they put the rubber button in it to stop this, it clunks loudly every time it starts up. Also, it will frequently knock the entire front piece off the unit, due to the clunking of trying to start up in reverse. The impeller and shaft both come out and I find them in the sandbed. On the contrary, the Jebao has never made a sound or started up in reverse. As far as flow, the Korallia will NOT create the flow that the Jebao does. With 6 Korallias in my tank, all running fulltime, it didn't create much movement at the surface of the water. I added the Jebao, and now have waves of about 1". This is in a 220g tank. All of these are at about the same elevation, so it's not that I put the Korallias down low and the Jebao up top to get more wave effect. In fact, if it's less than 4" from the top, it sucks air from the surface.

Can it completely replace a tunze or mp40? No. Can it work as a low cost substitute for people just starting or that don't have the budget for a higher priced powerhead? Yes... But there are other options like koralias, and several wave maker manufacturers.

As long as I can get these, I won't buy a Korallia or Tunze.

So you're basing your professional performance comparison simply on your eyeballs seeing a 2 inch wave in your tank with no empirical evidence to substantiate it? I'm not close minded to anything, I look at facts. There are no facts to support that this powerhead is a better product and outperforms the others "hands down" as you put it. I'd like to see a real performance evaluation of each of these powerheads that are a year old with constant use. I've already seen reports of components not working well right out of the box, photo sensor, which if that is any clue to the build and component quality that the outlook is bleak to say the least. I base my discussion on empirical data, not on what some people see. I've seen videos of these making waves on YouTube and like unsaid it is nothing do be impressed about, that can be done with any powerhead hooked up to a wave controller (a box that switches a bin controllable powerhead on and off). Again, I don't know what you are comparing this thing to the tunze wavebox, it is not the same thing.

I kinda figure if a guy has a Tunze or a Korallia in his tank, sees 1/2" waves....then puts in a Jebao, location and direction, and sees 1" waves, that's pretty substantial evidence. It likely doesn't equate to twice the flow, scientifically speaking, but it does prove something. In other words, if you drop a rock and a paper at the same time, and the rock hits the ground first, do you have to know the speed it fell at to prove it hit first?

Just a point to not get into another ******* match...but if you are a college student .... You are not an engineer....you may be studying to be one....but you are not one until you graduate and have real life work experience. Just a point of fact...college gives you a wonderful view of how business should be ...not what it is.

Also I believe that the magic number is 10% differences between products means its not infringement. I remember that from somewhere.
College doesn't make you smart either. I've met plenty of engineers that are complete idiots. Likewise, I've met some really smart people that never went to college, and some college students that were much smarter than others that already graduated. You just can't assume that since he's still a student, he doesn't know what he's talking about, any more than you can assume that every engineer with a degree does.

Aside from all that, people are spending most time comparing them to the Tunze. Fact is that it's like comparing a Camaro to a Porsche. A better comparison is comparing a Camaro to a Mustang, because the people that have the money for a Porsche are going to buy it, regardless of whether it's faster or not. In other words, comparing the Jebao to a Korallia is more useful than comparing it to a Tunze, because those that think Tunze is the greatest thing ever are not going to buy something else anyway.

As far as my take on what has happened and will happen:
A "Cease and desist" letter is not a court order. It is merely a threatening letter from a lawyer, saying that if you don't stop, I'll sue you. Good luck sueing a company in China!!! About all they can do is sue the companies in the US that are selling them. Stop all those companies through threatening letters or lawsuits, and another company will pop up and import them. They can't stop knockoff purses, with all the millions of dollars that purse companies spend fighting it, and Tunze isn't going to spend that much money, nor will they have much success in the long run.

 

[Engloid]

If you all want to read up on some Tunze patents, here's a link: Patent Database Search Results: tunze in US Patent Collection

It shows a few things, one of which is the design that has the motor outside the glass and impeller on the inside.

 

[Dsdaley77]

Agreed with redfishbluefish. On the surface, this appears to be a design patent infringement. Unless something internally was copied, the issue is that the "look and feel" of Tunze is being used to sell these pumps. It doesn't matter at all what the performance numbers are or how much better off the consumer will be with competition. These are the rules to play by in the US and around the much of the world.

Forget the America vs. China issue for a minute. If Chevy comes out with a car that looks exactly like a 2013 Ford Mustang, you can bet that there will be problems. A person who claims Chevy has the right to do it because it's better for the consumer would find it hard to be taken seriously. There is a design that Tunze is well-known for, and another company that allegedly copies it will have to show that the design isn't uniquely Tunze's.

Actually it's Tunze's burden to prove that they have a claim.


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[k2parkstar]

I'm amazed at how many patent lawyers and customs experts we have on this site. Through this thread I've discovered our expertise, other than reef keeping!

 

[CoryC]

I've used ecotech pumps, but also closely inspected the WP40 and tunze pumps and seen them used. I think the tunze and wwp40 are nearly identical. producing nearly the same wave/gph which is the how you would measure any pump, anything else speculative, there's a plethora of variables you could have created in making said "wave" that make it appear different. you can't argue with flow rates or pattern which considering the design is nearly idenctical as well.

What i don't get is people saying they'll never buy anything but the chinese knock offs again? so, considering how cheaply they are made, and they are, if your tank stays running 3 years, you'll likely go through 2-3 or 4-5 chinese pumps or one tunze or one mp40. so how is that saving money? even if something breaks with the quality pumps, if it's small you can get it fixed typically free of charge or at least refurbished for a small cost.

Comparing the corporate ethics to consumer ethics is apples and oranges. Jabo is in the wrong, yes it's cheaper but they are basically stealing someone elses work. would you want someone doing that to you? it may save you money, although that's unlikely as they are already having issues from being slapped together cheaply and shipped out with only profits in mind. they got busted, they'll probably still keep selling until people see how easily they break and how hard they are to be fixed. I'd almost bet money some of them leach voltage after time as well. Three pieces of equipment a reefer should never skimp on. A good light, a good protein skimmer, and a good pump. Do yourself a favor and you won't be mad you when something breaks.

 

[k2parkstar]

I've used ecotech pumps, but also closely inspected the WP40 and tunze pumps and seen them used. I think the tunze and wwp40 are nearly identical. producing nearly the same wave/gph which is the how you would measure any pump, anything else speculative, there's a plethora of variables you could have created in making said "wave" that make it appear different. you can't argue with flow rates or pattern which considering the design is nearly idenctical as well.

What i don't get is people saying they'll never buy anything but the chinese knock offs again? so, considering how cheaply they are made, and they are, if your tank stays running 3 years, you'll likely go through 2-3 or 4-5 chinese pumps or one tunze or one mp40. so how is that saving money? even if something breaks with the quality pumps, if it's small you can get it fixed typically free of charge or at least refurbished for a small cost.

Comparing the corporate ethics to consumer ethics is apples and oranges. Jabo is in the wrong, yes it's cheaper but they are basically stealing someone elses work. would you want someone doing that to you? it may save you money, although that's unlikely as they are already having issues from being slapped together cheaply and shipped out with only profits in mind. they got busted, they'll probably still keep selling until people see how easily they break and how hard they are to be fixed. I'd almost bet money some of them leach voltage after time as well. Three pieces of equipment a reefer should never skimp on. A good light, a good protein skimmer, and a good pump. Do yourself a favor and you won't be mad you when something breaks.

Agree 100%. You always, always get what you pay for. I bet half the people on here saying cheaper products are good for the consumer also complain about outsourcing, and the lack of jobs in America. Well it's your own fault for supporting Chinese labor, copied from American ingenuity.

 

[Engloid]

Quality doesn't always mean the highest reliability or performance. Where are tunze pumps made? I wouldn't be surprised if they were made in china....even if they shipped to tunze first before going to dealers. Many times a chineze company will be contracted to make a name brand product but they will also sell to other companies at the same time. Its similar to generic foods. You never pas a food plant that has the name "Generic" on a sign out front....but inside they may be making it. People would be surprised at where their packaged foods come from.

 

[Engloid]

I am curious though....how many people here criticizing these pumps has one?