Well this is no good... (warning! wp-25 discussion ahead)

[bct15]

It's funny that in every single Jebao thread I see at least one or two people that have a WP and an MP (and/or a Tunze). Why is that funny..... Because I have yet to see an MP or Tunze come out on top. Instead I see the opposite result. Just something I noticed.

And for the "AUTO" people...... There's a huge difference between "made in....." And "assembled in......". Just saying, lets put things in context and use legitimate references and comparisons.


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I think it's funny how this thread keeps turning into how much more great my jaebo is than your mp40, even though this is supposed to be a thread about TUNZE actions against jaebo. Of course you will see people who just bought a jaebo touting that it is the greatest investment they ever made, they just bought the thing. Most people who are satisfied, and don't mind purchasing, the mp40 will no see a need to get and compare this. The thing I am willing to bet, is a year down the road 50% of these same people will not be proclaiming these jaebo pumps as the most awesome thing on the planet. Everybody keeps looking at one thing as their evaluation of how much better this thing is then everything else, it is making a wave. That is only one aspect of performance, and no indication of quality...if you were to do a true performance/quality evaluation I don't think you would feel the same. Just to bring up a few points that you don't see covered anywhere on a jaebo thread about the jaebo pump, since we keep bringing up mp40s. Another thing that makes an mp40 so marketable, the selectable maximum flow rate out of the box..making it suitable for a vast array of different sized aquariums. With no modifications an aquarist can move his two mp40s from a 55 to a 120 and all he has to do is turn a dial. Another meat feature that can be seen as a must by some, is the optional battery backup and automatic power saving modes when operating on battery backup. Another Point that makes me like my mp40 is the fact that it seems to put a ton of flow from front to back and top to bottom of my tank everywhere. This non directionality of the flow I've never seen replicated with any powerhead. The wireless communication between pumps makes it easy for me to adjust flowrate and programming on all of my pumps just by making adjustments on one. The seedless integration into aquarium controllers giving me access to maximum flow and programming modes is quite nice, and settin different modes for different times of the day is quite nice. I like being able to run nutrient transport mode every Friday at 2 in the morning for five minutes without having to worry about it, and having it turn down to a nice gentle flow in the evening. The excellent customer support and ease to replace parts is really beyond mentioning, and I like how I have had mine running continuously for two years with no problems. It is funny when you see the same people
Comparing Chinese LEDs to radions, they scream it is not even close to a same comparison but then they compare a chinese pump to an mp40 they are wetting their pants over how great the Chinese pump is. I also like to support American companies when possible.

You will have fanboys of everything, and they will stand behind their favorite product no matter what. These jaebo pumps seem to be a good investment for the aquarist on a budget but they are honestly way too new to proclaim they are the most superior powerhead on the market. Now how about atar comparing it to the tunze powerhead that has introduced this problem instead of the mp40 because I don't think ecotech is very worried about losing a little business to jaebo. Like previously mentioned ecotech had already decided which corner of the market they are going to target and are just fine with tunze losing a little profit to jaebo, the customers who truly want ecotech products know what they are getting and are loyal to ecotech. I am actually trying to hunt one of these jaebo pumps down so I can see what all of the rage is about,


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[Daniel@R2R]

A few thoughts...

First, it has been said that ecotech isn't upset about this, but tunze is...not sure that can be truly declared since it may just be that ecotech has NO GROUNDS to level the same kind of complaint that tunze is leveling. These Jaebo pumps look nothing like ecotech's pumps, so they can't really put up a fight (even if they wanted to).

Second, Tunze has sent out letters declaring a patent infringement. Some of the posts on here seem to talk about this as though it has already been decided. There is a big difference between ALLEGED patent infringement and something that has decidedly been determined to be true. IF Jaebo is guilty, then their actions are shameful and wrong (and therefore they should not be supported by anyone regardless of what their price is), but I don't think anyone can conclude that they are guilty at this point. Whatever happened to "innocent until proven guilty" (can my USA supporters jump in to back this up? It seems very unAmerican to bash someone for something before they're proven guilty!!)?

Third, the idea that we should all stop supporting Chinese companies in a thread where the challenging company is German because we want to support the good ol' USA is absurd. Even if Tunze does have some manufacturing done in the US, the profits go back to Germany. Where is the outcry against Samsung phones and TVs, or European cars (I think Ferrari and Honda were mentioned here), or against other foreign brands?? This is truly an absurd argument...and it always comes up when Chinese brand things are mentioned...Evergrow lights, Jaebo pumps, etc. Can we set this argument aside and get back to the one about superiority??

Fourth...superiority. This is a theme that only time will tell. If you like ecotech and Tunze (btw, I currently have mp40s and Tunzes on my 120 and 180 respectively), then fantastic! Nobody would try to say that these aren't great pumps...and even if they did, their superiority to, say Koralia or Hydor, has been proven. If Jaebo has made a great/superior pump that can compete with Tunze and Ecotech long term, then only time will prove this. In the short run, it's gotten great reviews, so we can say that so far it's a good pump. It doesn't seem valid to declare definitively that this pump will break down or prove itself inferior in "6 months" (as was stated at one point). The wp40 has already made Tunze sit up and take notice (they are accusing Jaebo of patent infringement...it seems that THEY don't think this is a lousy pump that will disappear in a few months). Therefore, the bash session isn't really necessary. If you think Jaebo is worth a shot (I've seen lots of guys say things like, "at this price, it's worth a shot" or "I'll try it out since there's not much to lose"), then go for it, if you don't then stop bashing those who do. Remember, at some point ecotech was the "new kid in town," and I'm sure there were Tunze users who were reluctant to swap over to ecotech until it had proven itself...but there's no reason to bash.

Finally, this just seems like the same argument you find on EVERY chinese LED thread. It's a bash session from guys who have brand loyalty to Radion or AI or some other light that is namebrand who are upset that anyone would pay for less expensive equipment that isn't their preferred brand. Often a few guys will give some valid arguments in a civil manner, but then the thread fills up with crap about inferior products, presumptuous declarations about how the product will fail, the age old "you get what you pay for" (which is not always true...it sometimes is, but sometimes it isn't...sometimes you pay less because something is crap, but sometimes you pay more just because something has been better marketed or new...only testing the product can prove which is true), and last but not least, the argument for supporting the USA (made by people who have cars, phones, and TVs that are all made in other places). Why do we have to have this same bash session over and over and over again??? I for one just don't understand why it's necessary...

 

[jeremyblu]

Just my 2 cents but I have owned a mp40 and a tunze and now I am the owner of a wp40 and it blows the others away performance wise yes there r things that r like the tunze and mp but they r far enough apart that iam sure this will all get settled fast tunze is just mad at some one dipping in there penny bank or making them have to make there pumps better thats what all this is about plane and simple that hate the fact that wp40s blow there stuff away

 

[bct15]

A few thoughts...

..,

Finally, this just seems like the same argument you find on EVERY chinese LED thread. It's a bash session from guys who have brand loyalty to Radion or AI or some other light that is namebrand who are upset that anyone would pay for less expensive equipment that isn't their preferred brand. Often a few guys will give some valid arguments in a civil manner, but then the thread fills up with crap about inferior products, presumptuous declarations about how the product will fail, the age old "you get what you pay for" (which is not always true...it sometimes is, but sometimes it isn't...sometimes you pay less because something is crap, but sometimes you pay more just because something has been better marketed or new...only testing the product can prove which is true), and last but not least, the argument for supporting the USA (made by people who have cars, phones, and TVs that are all made in other places). Why do we have to have this same bash session over and over and over again??? I for one just don't understand why it's necessary...

I agree with every thing you said, except this thread has not been as much of a bash session for the wp40 as it has a boast session for wp40 owners exclaiming their powerhead is the greatest on the market and that it blows all tunze and ecotechs out of the water am tunze is only doing this because they know the wp40 is far superior to their product.

I agree and have been trying to say that it is way to early to proclaim this powerhead as superior. This was originally about a lawsuit and has turned into my wp40 is better than your powerhead thread.




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[bhazard451]

I agree with every thing you said, except this thread has not been as much of a bash session for the wp40 as it has a boast session for wp40 owners exclaiming their powerhead is the greatest on the market and that it blows all tunze and ecotechs out of the water am tunze is only doing this because they know the wp40 is far superior to their product.

I agree and have been trying to say that it is way to early to proclaim this powerhead as superior. This was originally about a lawsuit and has turned into my wp40 is better than your powerhead thread.

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Thing is, I own 2 WP40s, and owned 2 MP40s, and yes, the WP40s are superior. They simply move more water and can mimic the same modes, at 1/4th the price. That's fact. Whether you choose to accept it is up to you. I have several videos of how powerful these are in case you need to see it for yourself.

Dissect the control box, hold a WP40 in your hand, and then claim to me that it is cheap junk. It isn't. Try attaching the Tunze cover to the WP40, you cant, as they are shaped different. All of these are facts. Everyone else spouting Ecotech and Tunze R&D costs, claiming the Jebao is junk and will catch on fire, support USA (while both companies use parts from overseas) are all talking out of their a** with no facts backing any of it up, since none of you will ever see the true operating costs from these companies (Jebao included), because you have no right to.

Those of you supporting a duopoly and claim to be supporting the US is beyond me. If Tunze and Ecotech really do invest heavily in R&D, they will innovate and create a new pump which outdoes the WP40 which I would then want to purchase. If they can't they will be forced to drop prices. That is called competition. Competition is good. You want to drive innovation, not stifle it. Ecotech and Tunze have had no competition for years in the premium pump market, and they will finally need to compete and adapt just like every other industry.

 

[bct15]

Thing is, I own 2 WP40s, and owned 2 MP40s, and yes, the WP40s are superior. They simply move more water and can mimic the same modes, at 1/4th the price. That's fact. Whether you choose to accept it is up to you. I have several videos of how powerful these are in case you need to see it for yourself.

.

My point exactly...One person looking at one part of the powerhead and proclaiming it to be superior (forget controller integrability, customer support, reliability, different size tank uses, etc), like 80% of the other posts in here not even discussing the lawsuit but how much better their pump is than everything else. In the end it is just another propeller style powerhead with a digitally controlled switch on the motor.



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[bhazard451]

My point exactly...One person looking at one part of the powerhead and proclaiming it to be superior (forget controller integrability, customer support, reliability, different size tank uses, etc), like 80% of the other posts in here not even discussing the lawsuit but how much better their pump is than everything else. In the end it is just another propeller style powerhead with a digitally controlled switch on the motor.

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No, this is every part, but you refuse to accept it.

Controller integrability? WP40 wins. I modified mine easily to work on both an Apex and a Reef Angel. The Reef Angel cable is $25 for Jebao. The WXM and RF module for the Apex and Reef Angel is $100+. The WP40 integrates just as well, for a fraction of the cost. Those are facts, which I am willing to show, and you don't.

Customer Support? Could go either way. I haven't needed to use Ecotech support or Fish Street's. I shouldn't have to if the pump is quality built.

Reliability? Jebao's are too new to have long term data, but mine are running 3+ months strong. There are plenty of stories of wet sides and dry sides failing.

Ecotech has the motor outside, WP40 is in tank. WP40 is MUCH quieter.

You're right, in the end, they are ALL just powerheads with a switch on the motor... so that is why I sold my MP40s, and I'm just as happy if not happier with my WP40s.

$465 + $465 + $124= $1,054 = Pumps that move 6,400gph water controlled by a reef controller in a 125 gallon tank.

$100 + $100 + $25 + $25= $250 = Pumps that move 6,400gph water controlled by a reef controller in a 125 gallon tank.

Brand name removed, ask ANYONE what the better deal is. Its pretty obvious.

I didn't mention Tunze because I have not owned them. Most people trying to knock Jebao don't own the WP40, and just like to spew BS.

If you need a pump outside of the tank, go with Ecotech. Nothing wrong with paying the premium for a feature you desire. I didn't feel the outside motor was worth the $800 premium, and that was my choice as a consumer. Performance wise though, they operate on the same level, and you can try to deny it all you want, but that's just how it is.

 

[bhazard451]

The problem with the bogus cease and desist letter from Tunze, is that they are trying to remove my choice as a consumer. They do not own a utility patent on making 24v DC pumps, so what they are trying to do is strong arm retailers in a monopolistic manner. That's anti-competitive to the core, even more so than a pump that has a similar housing.

 

[Dsdaley77]

The problem with the bogus cease and desist letter from Tunze, is that they are trying to remove my choice as a consumer. They do not own a utility patent on making 24v DC pumps, so what they are trying to do is strong arm retailers in a monopolistic manner. That's anti-competitive to the core, even more so than a pump that has a similar housing.

Amen brother. Nice to see your name on here Bhazard. How have you been. Still loving the IT2040?

 

[bct15]

No, this is every part, but you refuse to accept it.

Controller integrability? WP40 wins. I modified mine easily to work on both an Apex and a Reef Angel. The Reef Angel cable is $25 for Jebao. The WXM and RF module for the Apex and Reef Angel is $100+. The WP40 integrates just as well, for a fraction of the cost. Those are facts, which I am willing to show, and you don't.

Customer Support? Could go either way. I haven't needed to use Ecotech support or Fish Street's. I shouldn't have to if the pump is quality built.

Reliability? Jebao's are too new to have long term data, but mine are running 3+ months strong. There are plenty of stories of wet sides and dry sides failing.

Ecotech has the motor outside, WP40 is in tank. WP40 is MUCH quieter.

You're right, in the end, they are ALL just powerheads with a switch on the motor... so that is why I sold my MP40s, and I'm just as happy if not happier with my WP40s.

$465 + $465 + $124= $1,054 = Pumps that move 6,400gph water controlled by a reef controller in a 125 gallon tank.

$100 + $100 + $25 + $25= $250 = Pumps that move 6,400gph water controlled by a reef controller in a 125 gallon tank.

Brand name removed, ask ANYONE what the better deal is. Its pretty obvious.

I didn't mention Tunze because I have not owned them. Most people trying to knock Jebao don't own the WP40, and just like to spew BS.

If you need a pump outside of the tank, go with Ecotech. Nothing wrong with paying the premium for a feature you desire. I didn't feel the outside motor was worth the $800 premium, and that was my choice as a consumer. Performance wise though, they operate on the same level, and you can try to deny it all you want, but that's just how it is.

You modify the pump to work with the controller, is it ready out of the box? No, which means it is not meant to be operated this way. I can use the reef angel which is open source built off the arduino platform to control whatever pump I want with the proper shield which is a lot less then $25. I don't have the pump but I am trying to get one to see why everybody is wetting their pants get it and feel the need to proclaim it is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I am not going to sit in here and argue with you about what pump is better (you already have your mind made up), I don't know why you and everybody else is in here comparing the wp40 to the mp40 in this thread...the lawsuit is with tunze and this thread was meant to discuss wp25 and the lawsuit. If you want to boast about how great your wp40 is why don't you start a thread titled "why my wp40 is so great".


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[bct15]

The problem with the bogus cease and desist letter from Tunze, is that they are trying to remove my choice as a consumer. They do not own a utility patent on making 24v DC pumps, so what they are trying to do is strong arm retailers in a monopolistic manner. That's anti-competitive to the core, even more so than a pump that has a similar housing.

Now that is more on point, the issue is of jaebo copied the design or not...several people who own both have said the pumps look practically identical. It will not be that difficult for jaebo to do a quick redimension of their mold models to end it quickly at give tunze nothing to complain about.

The question is, are the design infringements enough to justify tunze's claim...if not jaebo needs to do nothing. Either way, the pump will not be unavailable for very long.


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[Dsdaley77]

You modify the pump to work with the controller, is it ready out of the box? No, which means it is not meant to be operated this way. I can use the reef angel which is open source built off the arduino platform to control whatever pump I want with the proper shield which is a lot less then $25. I don't have the pump but I am trying to get one to see why everybody is wetting their pants get it and feel the need to proclaim it is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I am not going to sit in here and argue with you about what pump is better (you already have your mind made up), I don't know why you and everybody else is in here comparing the wp40 to the mp40 in this thread...the lawsuit is with tunze and this thread was meant to discuss wp25 and the lawsuit. If you want to boast about how great your wp40 is why don't you start a thread titled "why my wp40 is so great".


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First thing we need to clarify is that there is NO lawsuit. I challenge anyone to show different.
Second, if you read Bhazards post about the features and operation of the WP pumps you can clearly and intelligently extract/ conclude that Tunze, if they did send letters, have no lawsuit that would affect Jebao in any way.
Next, even if there was a lawsuit, and again there isn't, Customs can't enforce a legal court ruling that doesn't exist yet.

So at least for now all the hullabaloo about not getting these pumps is just speculation.

As for the language that was used regarding the use of this pump out of the box, try telling that to race car drivers or BMX racers. Or any number of people who on a daily basis modify things that we use, or can use if we choose, and resell them. It's called evolution and competition and is the way of the world.

You must be the one person who follows package directions to a t every time, all the time.
But most of us mod stuff to fit our needs and if a company is selling a product that is easily modded to fit my needs, is inexpensive, allows me to maybe learn something new and stick it to the man at the same time, I'm all in lol

 

[Dsdaley77]

Now that is more on point, the issue is of jaebo copied the design or not...several people who own both have said the pumps look practically identical. It will not be that difficult for jaebo to do a quick redimension of their mold models to end it quickly at give tunze nothing to complain about.

The question is, are the design infringements enough to justify tunze's claim...if not jaebo needs to do nothing. Either way, the pump will not be unavailable for very long.


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Well it would depend what Tunze is actually claiming as Design Patents and Utility Patents are different and protect different aspects of a product. I would be really curious to "see" one of these so called letters with my own eyes.


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[Dsdaley77]

How many slits in each of the pumps in question are there, if even different by one number, issue is dead in the water, no pun intended


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[CoryC]

You can't compare the noise of a motor in the tank to a motor on the outside, but the point is moot. The build quality of those WP pumps shows when parts don't work out of the box and i've seen reports of noises from the motor and leached voltage. Consistent quality, Jaebo doesn't have it, when you can't order one and order another and have the same working set of parts. We get it, it's a cheap pump that can move water, but it's got a short period of planned obsolescence, just like 100 pump should. Just like Koralias do their job for a $50 pump, but i've seen people go through a whole box of them over time, realized how much they spent in all, and bought a better pump and had it work for years. I'd be very surprised if any of those pumps make it to be 1 years old, in constant use. But i'm welcome to have some one come back and tell me i'm wrong. I'll eat some crow, but i bet i wont have to! Yes this thread has digressed, but isn't that the point of a message board? for discussion? talking about litigious details, is frankly quite boring to me. I see why there is a patent violation. I also see where jaebo has it's place, just like koralia does. i got suckered into koralias once, but i'm dang sure i won't again. I bet you WP guys that sold your mp40s wouldn't get 75% of your money back for those pumps in resale, like i've seen MPs and Tunze's go for.

 

[bct15]

Well it would depend what Tunze is actually claiming as Design Patents and Utility Patents are different and protect different aspects of a product. I would be really curious to "see" one of these so called letters with my own eyes.


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As far as modding things go, I can mod anything to do anything (keepin realistic bounds here) so once you've modded something, you can't count that as a feature. Like I said, I can make an arduino code that do whatever I want with whatever I want relatively easily. But I'm done discussing all of that irrelevant nonsense.

Back on topic, tunze has a design patent claim going...the number of ribs in a housing won't necessarily matter, but may or may not help the case. What the design entails (sort of in a nutshell) is the overall look and feel of the device. They are saying that jaebo is moving in on there look. Forgive my typing I have taken my ambien and am a little bit in dream land.


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[Dsdaley77]

As far as modding things go, I can mod anything to do anything (keepin realistic bounds here) so once you've modded something, you can't count that as a feature. Like I said, I can make an arduino code that do whatever I want with whatever I want relatively easily. But I'm done discussing all of that irrelevant nonsense.

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I just meant about your out of the box comment and how you said if we have to mod the pump it is because its not supposed to be used that way. It was a point I though was relayed in error or without proper reasoning that was all. I wasn't saying that makes it a feature, although having an upgradable/moddable product does actually become a feature.


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[Dsdaley77]

Back on topic, tunze has a design patent claim going...the number of ribs in a housing won't necessarily matter, but may or may not help the case. What the design entails (sort of in a nutshell) is the overall look and feel of the device. They are saying that jaebo is moving in on there look. Forgive my typing I have taken my ambien and am a little bit in dream land.

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If what you say is indeed true than this issue as I said again is dead in the water. In a design patent, only very small differences need to exist and in this case they clearly do. So to the original point of this thread, Tunze has no leg to stand on and frankly if I was Jebao, I would look into frivolousness claims and or corporate libel and send Tunze a letter lol


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[Daniel@R2R]

If what you say is indeed true than this issue as I said again is dead in the water. In a design patent, only very small differences need to exist and in this case they clearly do. So to the original point of this thread, Tunze has no leg to stand on and frankly if I was Jebao, I would look into frivolousness claims and or corporate libel and send Tunze a letter lol


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Now THAT'S a funny thought! :smile: ...and entirely possible. We'll have to see how this goes.

 

[bhazard451]

You can't compare the noise of a motor in the tank to a motor on the outside, but the point is moot. The build quality of those WP pumps shows when parts don't work out of the box and i've seen reports of noises from the motor and leached voltage. Consistent quality, Jaebo doesn't have it, when you can't order one and order another and have the same working set of parts. We get it, it's a cheap pump that can move water, but it's got a short period of planned obsolescence, just like 100 pump should. Just like Koralias do their job for a $50 pump, but i've seen people go through a whole box of them over time, realized how much they spent in all, and bought a better pump and had it work for years. I'd be very surprised if any of those pumps make it to be 1 years old, in constant use. But i'm welcome to have some one come back and tell me i'm wrong. I'll eat some crow, but i bet i wont have to! Yes this thread has digressed, but isn't that the point of a message board? for discussion? talking about litigious details, is frankly quite boring to me. I see why there is a patent violation. I also see where jaebo has it's place, just like koralia does. i got suckered into koralias once, but i'm dang sure i won't again. I bet you WP guys that sold your mp40s wouldn't get 75% of your money back for those pumps in resale, like i've seen MPs and Tunze's go for.

How do you know Jebao doesn't have any consistent quality since you don't own or run one? What's boring is seeing people make up bs about things they have no experience with, like yourself.

You think you see a patent violation, but a patent lawyer (someone who actually has knowledge of the subject), showed why Tunze would lose the case on RC (functional vs ornamental design). Tunze's design is functional, and the patent would possibly be rendered invalid if tried in court.

The reason these aren't compared to standard Koralias, is because they are a MUCH better DC pump with a nice easy controller. I ran Koralias before the MP40s, and I couldn't get rid of the Koralias quick enough. Now that's a pump with no resale, and the Jebao pump is much better quality.

I also could care less what these are in resale, as I have no reason to sell them. I don't need an inflated market price point to determine the true value of an item.