What’s the difference between cipro and amoxicillin

[brandon429]

I noticed above in that article, they wound up selecting medications no reefer has ever typed on this website

Good thing he didn't limit himself to the classic duo of amox or cipro, the two drugs we teach ourselves to select from. Hoping that article provides some relief in perspective to what's been advocated here.

Regarding medical journals, no they weren't about anemones lol. They were about the indiscriminate use of antibiotics by lay persons and how that's really, really risky. I never heard that part from any reef doc, though.

 

[brandon429]

Running this search shows polar opposite warnings nothing lackadaisical like we get in reefing circles

what doctors who don't have a stake in reefing say... do they have a lukewarm stance?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

It turns out, home aquarists don't have the right tools. That's the end of the story.

In a perfect world, perhaps every human patient would get an instant test of bacteria. But that is not even remotely close to reality. By far most antibiotics used in man do not use these tools.

 

[brandon429]

Agreed, maybe there will be a use for aquabiomics-type assessment in the future, not near, years out is my guess, that would make the matching phase available for home reefers…it’s evolving fast for sure.

What do we do, teach, in the interim? I mean after all everyone wants to avoid bleaching of a rare or old coral or loss of a prized fish

They want the most reliable method that requires the least work, that’s what the masses want/ our authors current meet that demand by teaching about antibiotics. Time to downplay that method and develop new ones, I hope to not see many more articles advising home application of these meds



We shouldn’t own animals that are so poorly matched to our current standard of reefing that these meds are needed. readers should be taught the vast and ever-growing list of animals, and reef building techniques, that will never require human meds to run.

Lack of those articles is a problem imo.

 

[JayM]

Just wow,wow! SMH!

He's not entirely wrong.

But.....
Using his logic, people should never use antibiotics either, which is clearly not a good idea.

I do agree that studies should be done and make the process more than just a SWAG, although I also realize that that would be a costly venture and not likely to happen on a large scale for such a small market.

 

[ChiCity]

You can add Elegance corals to that list per AC aquaculture, from collection to destination they are being treated with successful outcomes at near 100%.

I think CORAL magazine has covered this recently as well

you can add mushrooms and zoas to that list too
(i’ve used abs to treat numerous rhodactis)

 

[Malcontent]

Good thing he didn't limit himself to the classic duo of amox or cipro, the two drugs we teach ourselves to select from.

Ciprofloxacin is a metabolite of enrofloxacin and the two drugs can almost be used interchangeably.

It's hard to ignore the fluoroquinolones since they're such a common and useful class of antibiotic. Enrofloxacin was widely used by cat/dog vets as well as exotic vets in the '90s.

While there may be hundreds of antibiotics, there are only 7 primary classes of antibiotics so the choices aren't as varied and random as you think.

 

[brandon429]

Eventually reefers will have access to all of them unlim it won't always be supplies that regulate application is my guess. They'll search a thread or article, find the applied dosage, order it, and copy the run. That's where self application is heading with unlimited access via international click n ships. Direct bacterial manipulation as a trend coming soon interesting to see.

I would like to see any systems that dose a calculated run into the display for whatever reason get aquabiomics tested before and after, that's interesting data as the ability to measure clade changes increases daily with that science. There's no doubt that home reef tank application of these meds for invasions like brown jelly disease show a promising pattern of work on the target


But there's ways of fighting it called half year quarantine in a subsystem before stocking anything into a precious reef tank / in a world where we all stock and drop items from the pet store or online order then just deal with the vector consequences eight months later. Why doesn't prevention take priority in the pro- medication articles and threads? Because the side effects of the application don't matter

The % compliant torch heads who rebounded, even though their reef design at home favored pathogens vs not and wasn't changed, fuels the justification for the next person to dose at home->and for kicks I'd add in just a zip more...this is how all home dosing works, whoever set a dosage amount for a reef tank per gallon guessed at the amount, and course.


I advocate home use of antibiotics in a reef tank, including Chemi clean, 0%


Don't use them ever is my recommend, focus on making your reef design skills so good organisms want to grow in them

When someone branches out into a new organism and gets a problem, or an organism formerly adapted at home shows a problem, and by internet research finally brorives at home antibiotic dosing:

Don't.

That's a sign wheelhouse has been exceeded. Give the organism back, power level insufficient. The tank needs work, sourcing especially needs work

How we receive and prep organisms for our tanks can change to a non antibiotics model I'm positive


the water doesn't need a doser given to it, that's a trend worth pressing against.

Don't own that fish, not good enough to keep that torch etc
We need a high bar back


Pls do not breed weakly selected but highly colorful and expensive torch heads raised this way but sold to me as an unsuspecting reef natty...

there must be fifteen reasons unspoken this isn't good for reefing

It's good for Jay, or that dvm in the article, but it ain't good for me or you as home reefers is my take.

I'm not even for heavy handed govt: but I'll be happy with the side effect of now we're forced to engineer better reefs if they dang sure do crack down on access.

That will be good for natural selection of reef tank designers. The nimble and drug free will be selected for due to opportunity shift, and only the strongest lineages will prevail through this crunch time but I bet it doesn't last long. Post pandemic production of antibiotics full swing coming soon, order kilos of cipro from China coming soon is my bet. All teaching material in place supports the demand, non- drug innovation demand at historic lows

 

[PharmrJohn]

I think your ire for abuse of antibiotics ought to be focused on the millions of wasted doses for people with viruses, rather than the hundreds of them used for anemones.

Amen.

 

[brandon429]

That may be the case. But don't detract from the sidestudy that only reef aquarists, or those with skin in the game, try and sell us on increments of acceptance that's fascinating reef psychology. We get to be self appointed rule breakers in most all reef training I've read but the veterinarians still kept decent control on the freshwater side.

All other material we can find on home tinkering with antibiotics in Heated, fed, and inoculated microbial systems by the tens of thousands over very recent years says clearly it's not ok

There's no time to apply antibiotics in a home reef tank, or a home focused quarantine, until the swab plate and match has been done.

Nobody writes about that for reefers, we get the hints and maybes and opt out organisms where you of course dose with cipro. Nobody ever took a clear stance that I recall, makes me doubt today's info bias.



That dvm sure took a clear, clear unmistakable stance

My Google search didn't return 160,000 articles specifically warning about looking at viruses instead




if the pics show a brown jelly disease beaten that's a win. Ends justify the means, that's 2024 reefing + antibiotics.

There is a way to design home systems to keep without meds any reef organism currently being kept by meds, and that's what writers should strive to learn then teach us because that's supply- chain and law compliant reefing that also aligns with all searchable non reef material

 

[Malcontent]

Might be relevant:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.11.01.621504v1.abstract

 

[MarineandReef Jaron]

I hate chiming in on these debates but I am going to. Just because some people won't use something responsibly is not a reason to not use it at all. I used antibiotics regularly when working at the LFS for Anemonees. we would get up to 200 bubble tip anemones in at a time and there were just too many to pay detailed attention to. An antibiotic bath on all the anemones greatly reduced losses after shipping. We didn't treat all animals with antibiotics and the treatment was necessary because the anemones were dying in large numbers after shipping prior to the treatment.

Given what antibiotics cost I don't think we need to worry about people dumping them in their tanks regularly. As a hobbyist I have only used antibiotics at home once in 20 years to treat a bad brown jelly outbreak. There was definitely a need because there was brown jelly killing lots of euphylia. It cost me over $100 to treat my display tank. Do we really need to worry about people dumping $100 of antibiotics in their tank once every 20 years? On top of all of this, I am pretty familiar with the reef keeping community in my local area. There are maybe 3 dozen hobbyists in my state who would even be at the level of considering using antibiotics. If each of us use antibiotics once every 5 years that is an absolutely infinitesimal amount compared to the amount of antibiotics prescribed for Acne or any host of other minor health problems.

 

[Lucas Savioli]

Amoxicilin is a antibiotic in the family of penicillin, and ciprofloxacin is from the fluoroquinolone family. They are both broad spectrum antimicrobials, but each cover a different range of susceptible bacteria, and the proper use depends on the bacteria causing a disease.
But is worth saying that using antibacterials in your tank (not on quarantine) will affect the bacteria that runs the nitrogen cycle, maybe causing a surge of NH3 and NO2, and accumulating NO3 in long run.
That being said, use on disease could be fine, but it should be done properly, to avoid occurence of multiresistant bacteria (correct drug, correct dosage and correct timespan), and only if an bacterial disease is probable cause.

 

[Tamberav]

Like humans, animals can also get deadly bacterial infections. I’m all for antibiotic use if the animal needs it.

My cousin got autoimmune encephalitis last month. He started exhibiting drastic personality changes and aggression, among other symptoms. The doctors usually prophylactically treat with antibiotics while they do all the testing to determine the cause of the encephalitis.

It ended up not being bacterial, but the antibiotics could have saved his life if it was.

What I’m trying to get at is this: life is more nuanced than blanket-statement, generalization.

I’m not picking sides here but I assumed Brandon was against their use in aquaria because of the potential of creating super bugs that don’t respond to antibiotics.

So I would think he is advocating the protection of those treatments doctors use for your cousin.

I assume that’s why Canada and other countries make it difficult to get antibiotics.

Again, not picking sides, I use antibiotics with my fish.

I hope he is on the mend.

 

[Lucas Savioli]

I’m not picking sides here but I assumed Brandon was against their use in aquaria because of the potential of creating super bugs that don’t respond to antibiotics.

So I would think he is advocating the protection of those treatments doctors use for your cousin.

I assume that’s why Canada and other countries make it difficult to get antibiotics.

Again, not picking sides, I use antibiotics with my fish.

I hope he is on the mend.

I don't know how regulations works in the US regarding veterinary-use antibiotics, but in my country one can buy veterinary antibiotics without prescription, however, human-use antibiotics (and many other, including antidepressants, anti-epiletics, psicotropics in general) requires 2 prescriptions (one the farmacy will retain, the other is for patient guidance, and some are color-coded, numbered and issued by the ANVISA).

 

[Miami Reef]

I’m not picking sides here but I assumed Brandon was against their use in aquaria because of the potential of creating super bugs that don’t respond to antibiotics.

He wrote this:

The reason these should not be used in reefing: because in 100% of cases, a total guess is placed.

There's no time to apply antibiotics in a home reef tank, or a home focused quarantine, until the swab plate and match has been done.

I think his main issue is that we don’t test the specific strain of bacteria. My example of my cousin was in response to that.

Obviously doctors should use antibiotics. I’m not against antibiotics of reef tanks either if there is a bacterial infection.

 

[Pod_01]

I hate chiming in on these debates but I am going to. Just because some people won't use something responsibly is not a reason to not use it at all. I used antibiotics regularly when working at the LFS for Anemonees. we would get up to 200 bubble tip anemones in at a time and there were just too many to pay detailed attention to. An antibiotic bath on all the anemones greatly reduced losses after shipping. We didn't treat all animals with antibiotics and the treatment was necessary because the anemones were dying in large numbers after shipping prior to the treatment.

Given what antibiotics cost I don't think we need to worry about people dumping them in their tanks regularly. As a hobbyist I have only used antibiotics at home once in 20 years to treat a bad brown jelly outbreak. There was definitely a need because there was brown jelly killing lots of euphylia. It cost me over $100 to treat my display tank. Do we really need to worry about people dumping $100 of antibiotics in their tank once every 20 years? On top of all of this, I am pretty familiar with the reef keeping community in my local area. There are maybe 3 dozen hobbyists in my state who would even be at the level of considering using antibiotics. If each of us use antibiotics once every 5 years that is an absolutely infinitesimal amount compared to the amount of antibiotics prescribed for Acne or any host of other minor health problems.

Just out of curiosity, how does the use of antibiotics on anemones work?
Do they use them at final destination only or is it applied at every stop the animals are at?

Also in countries where antibiotics are not so easily accessible do they put up with large losses?

 

[~MD~Reefs~]

@brandon429

What do you think about Kung Fu Corals “KFC DIP”?

https://kungfucorals.com/blogs/news/the-kfc-dip-a-game-changer-in-keeping-healthy-euphyllia

 

[VintageReefer]

I would like to see any systems that dose a calculated run into the display for whatever reason get aquabiomics tested before and after,

Aquabiomics did this, here is a link to the section discussing it

More directly, I compared the aquarium microbiome before and after the treatment. Here's a table summarizing the major stats we look at in comparing aquarium microbial communities:

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Just out of curiosity, how does the use of antibiotics on anemones work?
Do they use them at final destination only or is it applied at every stop the animals are at?

Also in countries where antibiotics are not so easily accessible do they put up with large losses?

Collectors reportedly may now use them as well, but we don’t usually have much info on that.