Dosing Cipro and Amoxacillin both??

[reefmaster70]

Hey all. Not sure if the Chemistry forum is the appropriate place, but wasn't sure where else to pose the question. I have successfully used Cipro when treating full tanks as well as using as a dip for Acrobacter Genus (BJD).

I know the process for creating the KFC dip as well, although I think all of the materials needed to make it are a bit "overkill". What I am wondering and wanted to get thoughts on if Cipro by itself works well, would a combo mix of Cipro and Amoxicillin be even more effective, seeing as they each target different "traits" of the bacteria. So let's say we mix up 50ML of water with 500mg of Cipro and another 50ML of water with 500MG of Amox. Then mix the two to make a 100ML solution to be dosed either tank wide or as a dip.

Thoughts??

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The more antibiotics you use, the more widely you damage the microbiome of the tank. I personally would not use more if less worked, and would only use any as a last ditch effort.

 

[reefmaster70]

The more antibiotics you use, the more widely you damage the microbiome of the tank. I personally would not use more if less worked, and would only use any as a last ditch effort.

Understand that. I personally will set up a small (4 gal tank) and have dosed cipro for 7 days in that tank..and not only saved several infected Torches, but the healthy torches, I also treated that were near the diseased one, looked happier and healthier after the 7 day QT as well. As I upkeep several other peoples DT's I ONLY dose a display at the request of the owner. I've done a few that way, and so far no negative results.

I am just curious since Cipro and Amox attack disease in two different ways. Amox. stops bacterial cell wall synthesis while Cipro blocks the enzymes that allow bacteria to grow. I am guessing mixing the two would be more of a "one two" punch for any bacterial disease.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think that’s a too simplistic analysis. These two antibiotics kill different types of bacteria. Unless the disease is caused by multiple types of bacteria at once, I would not assume two is better than one.

 

[reefmaster70]

I think that’s a too simplistic analysis. These two antibiotics kill different types of bacteria. Unless the disease is caused by multiple types of bacteria at once, I would not assume two is better than one.

I understand that it's more complicated than the way I explained. I guess my main question regarding the "Mix". was to answer the question that IF the "KFC" dip is so highly effective at treatment, wouldn't simply mixing the two most "active" ingredients in the dip be as effective without having to add all of the other "filler" ingredients.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I understand that it's more complicated than the way I explained. I guess my main question regarding the "Mix". was to answer the question that IF the "KFC" dip is so highly effective at treatment, wouldn't simply mixing the two most "active" ingredients in the dip be as effective without having to add all of the other "filler" ingredients.

I doubt reefers know much about what what is happening on a bacterial specias level in a dip, but I will note two things.

1. Antibiotics in a dip seems prone to ineffectiveness since many antibiotics take a considerable time to work. Removing the antibiotic after a few minutes might have little effect. That is why antibiotics are not a part of fluids used for sanitizing hands, surfaces, etc. Rapid kill materials are what are used. I've worked in this field and this is a big deficiency in settings like surgery where there is microbial contamination (e.g., damaged colon).

2. If having these two particular antibiotics in a treatment is actually better in some context, it is more likely because two or more different types of bacteria could be the cause, and without knowing which type it is, a mix may be more likely to deal with what is there.

 

[reefmaster70]

I doubt reefers know much about what what is happening on a bacterial specias level in a dip, but I will note two things.

1. Antibiotics in a dip seems prone to ineffectiveness since many antibiotics take a considerable time to work. Removing the antibiotic after a few minutes might have little effect. That is why antibiotics are not a part of fluids used for sanitizing hands, surfaces, etc. Rapid kill materials are what are used. I've worked in this field and this is a big deficiency in settings like surgery where there is microbial contamination (e.g., damaged colon).

2. If having these two particular antibiotics in a treatment is actually better in some context, it is more likely because two or more different types of bacteria could be the cause, and without knowing which type it is, a mix may be more likely to deal with what is there.

aren't most "sanitizing" products actually surfactants, and really have nothing to do with the way an antibiotic, or antibacterial work. Sure you are cleaning on the surface with those fluids, but not actually breaking apart and killing the disease at an inner cellular level, like medications do.

 

[Fish Fan]

I do know that products like Soft Soap, a liquid hand soap (surfactant) got in some trouble for calling their product "antibacterial". Sure, washing your hands with soap does indeed remove a lot bacteria, but it's not "antibacterial" the way sanitizers work, like alcohols or bleach, for example, that can actually kill microbes. I think that's where some of the confusion about what "antibacterial" or "antimicrobial" means to a lot people.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

aren't most "sanitizing" products actually surfactants, and really have nothing to do with the way an antibiotic, or antibacterial work. Sure you are cleaning on the surface with those fluids, but not actually breaking apart and killing the disease at an inner cellular level, like medications do.

That is not exactly true.

Ignoring sanitizers like bleach and alcohol, which obviously do kill and even rip apart organisms, the compounds I am talking about do kill by damaging individual bacteria, and they do it fast.

There are a great many natural (e.g., often called antimicrobial peptides) and synthetic compounds (e.g., benzalkonium chloride) that contain positively charged nitrogen compounds that get into and damage bacterial membranes, killing them rapidly.

 

[VintageReefer]

You would have better results with cipro treatment followed by chemiclean. The other ingredients in kfc dip are easy to get and designed to help recovery, not kill bacteria.

Hydrogen peroxide isn’t part of the kfc dip, but a pre/post dip that is also helpful as it kills algae films and is good for killing off/removing decaying tissue. Personally I view the least efficient ingredient to be amoxicillin and I don’t think it’s very effective in sw.

What has given me the best results in fighting bjd as a full tank treatment is cipro added to the tank 3x a day for 5-7 days. Night just after lights out. Morning when lights come on. And a afternoon dose

 

[reefmaster70]

You would have better results with cipro treatment followed by chemiclean. The other ingredients in kfc dip are easy to get and designed to help recovery, not kill bacteria.

Hydrogen peroxide isn’t part of the kfc dip, but a pre/post dip that is also helpful as it kills algae films and is good for killing off/removing decaying tissue. Personally I view the least efficient ingredient to be amoxicillin and I don’t think it’s very effective in sw.

What has given me the best results in fighting bjd as a full tank treatment is cipro added to the tank 3x a day for 5-7 days. Night just after lights out. Morning when lights come on. And a afternoon dose

I do agree with you Cipro has been a super "BJD" magic wand in my DT tanks as well that is Euphyllia dominated. I have been reading a ton on the KFC dip lately, and so I i figured if CIRPO on its own was good, then a mix of Cipro and Amox would be a super one two punch. Just a hypothosis on my part, since it's the two main ingredients (along with Chemiclean) in the KFC treatment.