What brands of alkalinity, calcium, and magnesium are you using?

[Chris Ferrell]

BRS!

 

[DaveRaz]

DFS

 

[Eric G]

They might mix clearer, but the ME solids are exactly equal in potency to those sold by BRS, so you would have to dose the same amount.

I'm a couple credits shy of my chemistry degree but in my experience , I have to dose less of me than other products. I have no affiliation with Me corals.
met him at MACNA DC and tried it out.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm a couple credits shy of my chemistry degree but in my experience , I have to dose less of me than other products. I have no affiliation with Me corals.
met him at MACNA DC and tried it out.

OK, let's work through this so you can see there's no rationale for using less, and if you do, it is for reasons other than potency of the products.

Did they suggest to you that you'd use less when you met them? Your comment seemed weirdly like their own reps comments.

Looking at the following products of theirs:

Calcium chloride dihydrate
Sodium carbonate
Magnesium chloride hexahydrate
Magnesium sulfate anhydrous

The only product of theirs that is more potent than some others is their anhydrous magnesium sulfate. All the others are either less potent than other brands (like Brightwell which uses anhydrous magnesium and calcium products) or equally potent (like BRS, which uses all the same materials except magnesium sulfate heptahydrate).

 

[marke]

Randy,
First let me disclose that I am MECoral. It clear on my picture. I have done a few videos on R2R afisonado channel disclosing I am ME. I have read all of your articles many times and continue to read them for the 10th time getting more everytime. So I respect you as the expert. I understand what you are trying to say that ME and BRS must be the same potency. I am not a scientist and hear your logic. What I remember from college math, was if you had a large sample size (99) and they all came up with the same result, then you can say with 99% confidence level, that something must be true? In the case of lets say Kh. More than 100 reefers can attest that when they switched fron BRS to ME they had to reduce the amount they dosed by about 20%. I cant answer exactly why. Your the scientist? If you added 1ml/litre of BRS or others including ME, then tested you would see a difference. Get involved in understanding why. Let me send you a sample to test?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy,
First let me disclose that I am MECoral. It clear on my picture. I have done a few videos on R2R afisonado channel disclosing I am ME. I have read all of your articles many times and continue to read them for the 10th time getting more everytime. So I respect you as the expert. I understand what you are trying to say that ME and BRS must be the same potency. I am not a scientist and hear your logic. What I remember from college math, was if you had a large sample size (99) and they all came up with the same result, then you can say with 99% confidence level, that something must be true? In the case of lets say Kh. More than 100 reefers can attest that when they switched fron BRS to ME they had to reduce the amount they dosed by about 20%. I cant answer exactly why. Your the scientist? If you added 1ml/litre of BRS or others including ME, then tested you would see a difference. Get involved in understanding why. Let me send you a sample to test?

So let's back up. Yes I see the avatar that is now added, and I appreciate that.

What exactly are you referring to adding and requiring less?

1. If you are talking about the amount of solid sodium carbonate needed to maintain alkalinity in a reef tank, then there's no reasonable explanation of how one brand of sodium carbonate could need less weight except if the demand in the tank itself was reduced somehow or one of the solids had substantial inert ingredients in it that displaced sodium carbonate in the weight. The reduced demand might happen if one brand contained something that the corals did not like, such as a toxic impurity. I doubt you are proposing this as the explanation.

2. If you are talking abut something mixed by volume of dry powder, then the answer will depend on the bulk density of the dry powder used, and that might vary from brand to brand.

3. If you are talking about the amount of dissolved sodium carbonate supplement needed to maintain alkalinity in a reef tank, then it obviously depends critically on what concentration the liquid supplement is made to. Yours seem less potent than most, however. Not sure why you make them so low.

Your liquid alkalinity supplement descriptions have some typos, but your web site says:

http://mecoral.com/product/me-alkalinity-gallon/

"In order to raise Kh 10 dkh or from 8.00 to 8.10 in 100 gallons of aquarium water, add 20 ml or .7 fl oz"

I'll assume that 10 dKH is really 0.1 dKH, so that indicates that the alkalinity of the supplement can be calculated as follows:

100 gallons = 378,500 mL

0.1 dKH added per 100 gallons = 0.1 dKH per 378,500 mL

if Y is your potency (in dKH), then

(20 mL x Y dKH)/378,500 mL = 0.1 dKH
0.0000528 x Y dKH = 0.1 dKH
Y = 1,892 dKH

So your potency is 1,892 dKH.

That is actually quite low. It is much lower than my DIY Recipe #1 (5,300 dKH) which BRS uses as the basis of its recipe).

This is easily seem with an online calculator.

To get the same rise with my recipes as you quote on your web site as taking 20 mL (o.1 dKH per 100 gallons), takes:

Recipe 1: 7.1 mL
Recipe 2: 14.2 mL

 

[Eric G]

After reading this maybe it was all in my head ,and I was wrong. I'm wrong 99.8% of the time says the wife. Like I said I'm a few credits shy(like all of them) shy of a entry level chemist.

 

[marke]

So let's back up. Yes I see the avatar that is now added, and I appreciate that.

What exactly are you referring to adding and requiring less?

1. If you are talking about the amount of solid sodium carbonate needed to maintain alkalinity in a reef tank, then there's no reasonable explanation of how one brand of sodium carbonate could need less weight except if the demand in the tank itself was reduced somehow or one of the solids had substantial inert ingredients in it that displaced sodium carbonate in the weight. The reduced demand might happen if one brand contained something that the corals did not like, such as a toxic impurity. I doubt you are proposing this as the explanation.

2. If you are talking abut something mixed by volume of dry powder, then the answer will depend on the bulk density of the dry powder used, and that might vary from brand to brand.

3. If you are talking about the amount of dissolved sodium carbonate supplement needed to maintain alkalinity in a reef tank, then it obviously depends critically on what concentration the liquid supplement is made to. Yours seem less potent than most, however. Not sure why you make them so low.

Your liquid alkalinity supplement descriptions have some typos, but your web site says:

http://mecoral.com/product/me-alkalinity-gallon/

"In order to raise Kh 10 dkh or from 8.00 to 8.10 in 100 gallons of aquarium water, add 20 ml or .7 fl oz"

I'll assume that 10 dKH is really 0.1 dKH, so that indicates that the alkalinity of the supplement can be calculated as follows:

100 gallons = 378,500 mL

0.1 dKH added per 100 gallons = 0.1 dKH per 378,500 mL

if Y is your potency (in dKH), then

(20 mL x Y dKH)/378,500 mL = 0.1 dKH
0.0000528 x Y dKH = 0.1 dKH
Y = 1,892 dKH

So your potency is 1,892 dKH.

That is actually quite low. It is much lower than my DIY Recipe #1 (5,300 dKH) which BRS uses as the basis of its recipe).

This is easily seem with an online calculator.

To get the same rise with my recipes as you quote on your web site as taking 20 mL (o.1 dKH per 100 gallons), takes:

Recipe 1: 7.1 mL
Recipe 2: 14.2 mL

Thank you Randy-----Looks like my web and labels need updating and typo corrections. Thankyou! These numbers are obviously wrong? The point I am trying to make is you are basing you assumptions and hence your conclusions on what is written, in this case incorrectly. Or the assumption that all sodium carbonate are the same regardless of who manufactured it? What I am trying to say is if you like others mixed it and added it to NSW you will see a difference as soon as it hits the water. Not sure why? Help me understand? Also help me understand why users are telling me its stronger? Could it be density? Weight? I am begging you to let me send you some so you can touch, smell, test and then come to some conclusion? Actual vs text paperwork? By the way I dont think concentration is as important as the quality of the raw material. Or the reduction of impurities? I would be happy to provide you a Certificate of Analysis (COA) showing the levels of impurities. I believe in full disclosure! Please get me an address!

 

[ddwatson]

I use brightwell. I switched to BRS but I was using more to keep my numbers so I switched back. In my case it may have been user error when mixing but I have had great results from Brightwell and it's much easier.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you Randy-----Looks like my web and labels need updating and typo corrections. Thankyou! These numbers are obviously wrong? The point I am trying to make is you are basing you assumptions and hence your conclusions on what is written, in this case incorrectly. Or the assumption that all sodium carbonate are the same regardless of who manufactured it?

I am basing all of the conclusions on the fact that sodium carbonate is similar in potency the world around, EXCEPT my conclusion that your liquid product is quite weak. If the info on your web site is wrong, your liquid product could be more, less or similarly potent to other products. We can revisit that once you correct the info there.

FWIW, BRS uses anhydrous sodium carbonate and you cannot have a sodium carbonate product that is notably more potent.

What I am trying to say is if you like others mixed it and added it to NSW you will see a difference as soon as it hits the water. Not sure why? Help me understand?

Well, I'll try to explain it if you tell me what exactly you see that is different.

Also help me understand why users are telling me its stronger? Could it be density? Weight? I am begging you to let me send you some so you can touch, smell, test and then come to some conclusion? Actual vs text paperwork?

Perhaps it is because they are following your recipe to make the actual potency in your liquid product, and the solid seems to go a lot farther because you have them use so little to make the weak solution?

Anyway, your product description does not say how much comes in a bag in grams.

How do you pack the bag? By weight? By volume? How much is in a bag?

http://mecoral.com/product/me-alkalinity-powder/

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I use brightwell. I switched to BRS but I was using more to keep my numbers so I switched back. In my case it may have been user error when mixing but I have had great results from Brightwell and it's much easier.

I expect you'd use less of the Brightwell calcium and magnesium products than BRS who uses hydrated materials, since Brightwell has taken the moisture out of their solid products to make them anhydrous (well, they didn't, but their suppliers did).

I am interested, however, in what is easier about them?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Or the assumption that all sodium carbonate are the same regardless of who manufactured it? What I am trying to say is if you like others mixed it and added it to NSW you will see a difference as soon as it hits the water. Not sure why? Help me understand? Also help me understand why users are telling me its stronger? Could it be density? Weight? I am begging you to let me send you some so you can touch, smell, test and then come to some conclusion? Actual vs text paperwork? By the way I dont think concentration is as important as the quality of the raw material. Or the reduction of impurities?

Are they using and comparing potency on a weight basis or volume basis?

Different manufacturers can have different bulk densities, so 1cup does not always equal one cup from another manufacturer while 500 grams will be the same from any supplier of anhydrous sodium carbonate.

So be sure your customers are using correct recipes for the materials that you are providing, which may be different if you give volume directions (or if they mistakenly take volume directions from other companies recipes).

If you provide the bulk density (or just the weight of exactly two cups) we can assess if your product is different from BRS in that regard.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

After reading this maybe it was all in my head ,and I was wrong. I'm wrong 99.8% of the time says the wife. Like I said I'm a few credits shy(like all of them) shy of a entry level chemist.

Eric, we're you comparing potency on a volume of dry solid basis, or weight basis?

In terms of the potency per unit volume, like a cup of dry solids, those can be quite different since some materials pack down a lot more than others of the same chemical composition.

I hadn't thought that was what folks might be thinking and doing, but someone suggested it as a possibility.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

By the way I dont think concentration is as important as the quality of the raw material. Or the reduction of impurities?

FWIW, I had a chance last night to review the specification sheet for the BRS sodium carbonate, and there's no chance that impurities alter its apparent potency. While they do not want the exact percentage spec revealed since they do not want people copying their exact supplier, it is more than 99% sodium carbonate by weight. So it cannot be significantly less potent (by weight) than any other sodium carbonate material.

Again, as mentioned above, different products have differently fluffiness factors (like powder sugar vs granulated sugar, as an extreme comparison) so important comparisons and measurements should not be done by volume for any dry solid materials unless you correct for bulk density differences.

 

[ddwatson]

I expect you'd use less of the Brightwell calcium and magnesium products than BRS who uses hydrated materials, since Brightwell has taken the moisture out of their solid products to make them anhydrous (well, they didn't, but their suppliers did).

I am interested, however, in what is easier about them?

With bright well I just change out the jug. There is no mixing involved. I buy their biggest bottles available and just switch out the lids. ( I have drilled a hole in the lids for the dosing tube to run in). I use it with a bubble magnus dose and have had great results.

 

[pitt]

I used b ionic but change to me coral.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

With bright well I just change out the jug. There is no mixing involved. I buy their biggest bottles available and just switch out the lids. ( I have drilled a hole in the lids for the dosing tube to run in). I use it with a bubble magnus dose and have had great results.

Ok, makes sense.

FWIW, When I was referring to potency, I meant their solid dry forms. So sorry if I misunderstood what you were using.

 

[ddwatson]

Ok, makes sense.

FWIW, When I was referring to potency, I meant their solid dry forms. So sorry if I misunderstood what you were using.

[emoji1] LOL

 

[Robink]

BRS

 

[acesfull44]

A newb question relating to this Dosing ? Do you dose in the DT or the sump? If sumop, which chamber?