What causes STN?

[Dowtish]

Are you moving out of Nashville area or just moving to another house?

Just moving 20 minutes down the road.

 

[nwpowell0481]

I would think so. If the water can only support so much of the corals life, I would think the coral would want to keep the new growth alive and let the less important part die off (the base). I like to compare a lot to other life situations, so it's like if it was really cold out and ur body starts to get cold ur body will take care of the important parts, like ur organs, and will take blood from the less important parts like finger tips or toes.

The base of the coral is already big and solid so the coral knows it can focus more energy on the growing up part.

So let me ask this. Do you think that it is possible that having nutrient levels that are too low to sustain the biomass of the corals could make them more susceptible to STN.

 

[jservedio]

So let me ask this. Do you think that it is possible that having nutrient levels that are too low to sustain the biomass of the corals could make them more susceptible to STN.

I don't know about this. The levels of phosphates and nitrates in the ocean are way lower than we can test for with hobby kits. Even a Hanna phosphate checker is going to register 0.00 on NSW because typical ocean levels are 0.005 ppm. I doubt we are able to get lower than this - especially since we are feeding our tanks and it is very well known that actual phosphate levels are higher than what we test for.

As for Nitrates - we don't have media that directly removes nitrates like we do for phosphates so this would seem very hard to accomplish. Even the best nitrate test kits only go down to 0.2ppm and this is DOUBLE the typical level in the ocean.

I would be more concerned with lack of stability in these levels more so than the raw number when changing media. If you have 0.04ppm of phosphate and it changes to 0.002ppm I would thing that change would be more of a problem than the actual level itself.

 

[nwpowell0481]

I don't know about this. The levels of phosphates and nitrates in the ocean are way lower than we can test for with hobby kits. Even a Hanna phosphate checker is going to register 0.00 on NSW because typical ocean levels are 0.005 ppm. I doubt we are able to get lower than this - especially since we are feeding our tanks and it is very well known that actual phosphate levels are higher than what we test for.

As for Nitrates - we don't have media that directly removes nitrates like we do for phosphates so this would seem very hard to accomplish. Even the best nitrate test kits only go down to 0.2ppm and this is DOUBLE the typical level in the ocean.

I would be more concerned with lack of stability in these levels more so than the raw number when changing media. If you have 0.04ppm of phosphate and it changes to 0.002ppm I would thing that change would be more of a problem than the actual level itself.

I agree with you completely however i'm not just talking about nitrates and phosphates. There are a more nutrients in our tanks than just those two. You also have to consider amino acids, strontium, boron, manganese, molybdenum, and a bunch of others. Granted they exist in very low levels but they are necessary none the less. When we export nutrients out of our tanks we focus on removing as much nitrate and phosphate as possible, mostly to avoid algae outbreaks and to allow calcifying corals to build their skeletons, but we forget that corals also need these in very small amounts to survive as well as other elements i mentioned before. When we export nutrients via a skimmer, reactors, refugiums, algae scrubbers etc we are also exporting other nutrients as well. If these nutrients are not available in high enough levels to sustain the biomass of the corals as well as the other organisms in our tanks, could that cause tissue recession on SPS corals and/or weaken the coral to the point that a bacterial infection could take hold and cause STN? IS it possible that our efforts in nutrient export may in some cases be a little excessive?

 

[mcarroll]

IS it possible that our efforts in nutrient export may in some cases be a little excessive?

Excellent question! I don't know how the answer can be anything but YES!

I'm going to try to get an article I've been working on posted with some facts and theories on the subject soon to see if we can keep the topic alive. :)

 

[bct15]

What amino acids is if that the corals can not synthesize on their own? I thought they only need two or three amino acids and they can synthesize the rest on their own...

 

[nwpowell0481]

What amino acids is if that the corals can not synthesize on their own? I thought they only need two or three amino acids and they can synthesize the rest on their own...

Its true that corals can synthesize the necessary amino acids not found in natural seawater but what are they going to use to do so, thin air??? The symbiotic algae that reside in their tissue also have nutrient needs. I think most of us have seen what happens when the algae in coral tissue jumps ship. Granted i'm not a biologist by any stretch. I'm simply basing my theory on my own observations. I've actually had sps and lps corals start looking less than stellar and was able to bring them back by simply backing off on nutrient export. ie shutting down gfo and carbon reactors and/or skimmer for a few days in order to let nutrient levels come back up. I also used to follow a lot of peoples advice and feed just enough to keep the fish happy and nothing more. Now I have better luck with corals growing and looking healthy if I tend to go a little nuts once in awhile. Not crazy all the time but at least once a week I give the clean up crew a little extra workout. Since I started working off the idea that some nutrients in the water was ok I have had no issues with STN, RTN, bleaching, or tissue recession. Maybe i'm just lucky. Who knows.

 

[Reef Pets]

I'm a biologist, not marine biologist, but ill give my 2 cents. I think what reef pets is doing is great. We all should be applauding companies doing actual research on their products. Bravo. I also agree that in some cases RTN and STN are more complicated then a simple bacterial infection. There my be bacteria present, but it's an issue of causation. To say the bacteria is absolutely the cause of the decay is likely naive. In my own observation I believe in many cases STN can be chalked up to apoptosis ( programmed cell death). I have had colonies start to stn from the base up, I frag them , and then the frags die in the order they would have had they been left a colony.
Think of it this way though. If reef pets gives us a product that even works 50% of the time on the various causes of stn I know I would be incredibly grateful.

Thanks and I agree completely. So far we have had great success and this is the reason I want to reach out to other hobbyist before considering the release of the product. As you stated, it might be caused from many other things and for all I know we have only been able to treat one form of STN therefore making the product 100 percent successful for us. For this reason I want to reach out to many other hobbyist to see what their results are. Of course with a dip such as this there is no 100 percent guarantee it will work every time and as we all know the same goes for all other dips.

Ill release something letting people know when we are ready for other hobbyist to try it. I say this because when I first posted on this thread about the dip I was hammered through PM with people wanting to try it out, I do appreciate those that contacted me. To those that sent me a PM I will certainly keep the PM's and you guys will be considered first for the test. I will ask for several before pictures and information on each tank to make sure the product is being used in a normally healthy environment. This assures me the tests results will be accurate.

 

[Reef Fever]

Thanks and I agree completely. So far we have had great success and this is the reason I want to reach out to other hobbyist before considering the release of the product. As you stated, it might be caused from many other things and for all I know we have only been able to treat one form of STN therefore making the product 100 percent successful for us. For this reason I want to reach out to many other hobbyist to see what their results are. Of course with a dip such as this there is no 100 percent guarantee it will work every time and as we all know the same goes for all other dips.

Ill release something letting people know when we are ready for other hobbyist to try it. I say this because when I first posted on this thread about the dip I was hammered through PM with people wanting to try it out, I do appreciate those that contacted me. To those that sent me a PM I will certainly keep the PM's and you guys will be considered first for the test. I will ask for several before pictures and information on each tank to make sure the product is being used in a normally healthy environment. This assures me the tests results will be accurate.

I am sure you have a ton of people lined up but I would be willing to try. I have had some issues with STN too many times, always on newer pieces, the occasional established piece as well