What is going on with my Angel?

[Dom]

This may sound like a cop out - but its not - I would suggest you contact the place you bought the fish - ask them what they did exactly - and what they recommend?

I wouldn't be interested in any recommendation this LFS may provide.

 

[LAReefer4Life]

At this point, I think you have to approach treatment as if ALL fish in the tank are infected. Also, going fallow in your DT is part of the solution.

Treat for what though? I am not sure exactly what the issue is. That's why I conducted the dip last night for process of elimination. I am not hesitant to treat in the slightest as I have a HUGE investment in my livestock and love them all very much.

Only Neobenedenia flukes will show up in a dip. The other species are too small, you need a microscope, and then, they just look like tiny balls of mucus.

Was this video right after the FWQ dip? I'm still seeing slightly elevated respiration. What is the water temp?

Jay

@Jay Hemdal @MnFish1 @Sharkbait19 @vetteguy53081 , I believe it is flukes, today the angel no longer has those spots after the dip last night. I was very concerned it might of been velvet just based on the quantity of spots on the angelfish which I did notice out of the blue.
However, in my experience over the years supporting fish disease on the forum and running my own QT for many years, I wasn't experiencing the typical symptoms the fish would exhibit like faded in color, rapid breathing, loss of appetite, and hiding out and reclusiveness, so I wasn't sure what the heck is going on. I imagine if it is velvet, things would be quick progressing and remain stagnant day to day. But I run 2 oversized UV and ozone so that is to be weighted out. The spots on the fish are NOT raised, but flush to the body and better seen from certain angles in the lighting

@Jay Hemdal, here is what I do know, my Zebra Acanthurus tang flashes on the sand frequently but thought it could be a form of posturing as he is super aggressive and is really the only one that exhibits this behavior regular besides my femininus wrasse flashes once in a while but that is not unusually for that species. I also observed head shaking with the zebra tang. The Acanthurus tang has honestly been a complete nightmare with the other fish and he has thrown off the entire balance unfortunately. The other observation I've noticed for quite some time is the excessive yawning of all the inhabitants. Many times per day for all fish. I did experience an issue with my clown that I reached out to you showing elevated breathing and lack of appetite but she was experiencing that internal issues, white poop hanging from her anus for a few days and could release it. I pulled her into QT and treated General Cure and she is doing great now.

I separated the zebra tang away from the other fish since he was sooooo aggressive and everyone since seems much more calm. Last note here is I see slight elevated breathing usually after they eat though which is not uncommon but I still think there breathing is slightly elevated due aggression amongst fish and possibly flukes.

My hesitation to treat display with PraziPro is the femininus wrasse and earls but I was thinking I would pull them out in to separate QT and treat with General Cure while I treat the display with PraziPro and once treatment has concluded I would add the wrasse back in. Anyways here is a video of the fish this morning. Here is a video of them fish today so you see behavior and see the angel body after the dip last night.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Treat for what though? I am not sure exactly what the issue is. That's why I conducted the dip last night for process of elimination. I am not hesitant to treat in the slightest as I have a HUGE investment in my livestock and love them all very much.


@Jay Hemdal @MnFish1 @Sharkbait19 @vetteguy53081 , I believe it is flukes, today the angel no longer has those spots after the dip last night. I was very concerned it might of been velvet just based on the quantity of spots on the angelfish which I did notice out of the blue.
However, in my experience over the years supporting fish disease on the forum and running my own QT for many years, I wasn't experiencing the typical symptoms the fish would exhibit like faded in color, rapid breathing, loss of appetite, and hiding out and reclusiveness, so I wasn't sure what the heck is going on. I imagine if it is velvet, things would be quick progressing and remain stagnant day to day.

@Jay Hemdal, here is what I do know, my Zebra Acanthurus tang flashes on the sand frequently but thought it could be a form of posturing as he is super aggressive and is really the only one that exhibits this behavior regular besides my femininus wrasse flashes once in a while but that is not unusually for that species. I also observed head shaking with the zebra tang. The Acanthurus tang has honestly been a complete nightmare with the other fish and he has thrown off the entire balance unfortunately. The other observation I've noticed for quite some time is the excessive yawning of all the inhabitants. Many times per day for all fish. I did experience an issue with my clown that I reached out to you showing elevated breathing and lack of appetite but she was experiencing that internal issues, white poop hanging from her anus for a few days and could release it. I pulled her into QT and treated General Cure and she is doing great now.

I separated the zebra tang away from the other fish since he was sooooo aggressive and everyone since seems much more calm. Last note here is I see slight elevated breathing usually after they eat though which is not uncommon but I still think there breathing is slightly elevated due aggression amongst fish and possibly flukes.

My hesitation to treat display with PraziPro is the femininus wrasse and earls but I was thinking I would pull them out in to separate QT and treat with General Cure while I treat the display with PraziPro and once treatment has concluded I would add the wrasse back in. Anyways here is a video of the fish this morning. Here is a video of them fish today so you see behavior and see the angel body after the dip last night.

While i agree the behavior and result of FW dip suggest flukes, I am now able to see good pics and appear more like ich or even velvet based on size of dots and coverage on the fish.

 

[LAReefer4Life]

While i agree the behavior and result of FW dip suggest flukes, I am now able to see good pics and appear more like ich or even velvet based on size of dots and coverage on the fish.

Thanks @vetteguy53081, Jay mentioned the spots were too large to be velvet in another post. Can you please take another look? The spots are mot raised and also note that you can could see them from specific angles well and others they were not noticeable.

 

[nuxx]

Would also vote ICH.

 

[LAReefer4Life]

Would also vote ICH.

Okay thanks. Would the spots of ich fall off after dip? I thought the dip would remove any tromonts embedded in the skin?

 

[nuxx]

Okay thanks. Would the spots of ich fall off after dip? I thought the dip would remove any tromonts embedded in the skin?

Not sure, I only fought ICH in QT...

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Treat for what though? I am not sure exactly what the issue is. That's why I conducted the dip last night for process of elimination. I am not hesitant to treat in the slightest as I have a HUGE investment in my livestock and love them all very much.


@Jay Hemdal @MnFish1 @Sharkbait19 @vetteguy53081 , I believe it is flukes, today the angel no longer has those spots after the dip last night. I was very concerned it might of been velvet just based on the quantity of spots on the angelfish which I did notice out of the blue.
However, in my experience over the years supporting fish disease on the forum and running my own QT for many years, I wasn't experiencing the typical symptoms the fish would exhibit like faded in color, rapid breathing, loss of appetite, and hiding out and reclusiveness, so I wasn't sure what the heck is going on. I imagine if it is velvet, things would be quick progressing and remain stagnant day to day. But I run 2 oversized UV and ozone so that is to be weighted out. The spots on the fish are NOT raised, but flush to the body and better seen from certain angles in the lighting

@Jay Hemdal, here is what I do know, my Zebra Acanthurus tang flashes on the sand frequently but thought it could be a form of posturing as he is super aggressive and is really the only one that exhibits this behavior regular besides my femininus wrasse flashes once in a while but that is not unusually for that species. I also observed head shaking with the zebra tang. The Acanthurus tang has honestly been a complete nightmare with the other fish and he has thrown off the entire balance unfortunately. The other observation I've noticed for quite some time is the excessive yawning of all the inhabitants. Many times per day for all fish. I did experience an issue with my clown that I reached out to you showing elevated breathing and lack of appetite but she was experiencing that internal issues, white poop hanging from her anus for a few days and could release it. I pulled her into QT and treated General Cure and she is doing great now.

I separated the zebra tang away from the other fish since he was sooooo aggressive and everyone since seems much more calm. Last note here is I see slight elevated breathing usually after they eat though which is not uncommon but I still think there breathing is slightly elevated due aggression amongst fish and possibly flukes.

My hesitation to treat display with PraziPro is the femininus wrasse and earls but I was thinking I would pull them out in to separate QT and treat with General Cure while I treat the display with PraziPro and once treatment has concluded I would add the wrasse back in. Anyways here is a video of the fish this morning. Here is a video of them fish today so you see behavior and see the angel body after the dip last night.

IMO - General Cure has no benefit over Prazipro for wrasses. The praziquantel dose is about the same, and GC has the metronidazole in it, which is not without its own stressor issues. The big issue with Prazipro is the solvent - one of the glycols. It disperses the prazi, but then it is broken down by heterotrophic bacteria, which can suck oxygen out of the water. Flashlight fish can't tolerate that, and wrasses can also have issues if the tank does not have good aeration., It also works like carbon dosing and can drop your nitrates.

Jay

 

[nereefpat]

Would the spots of ich fall off after dip? I thought the dip would remove any tromonts embedded in the skin?

No. Spots are the skin's reaction to the feeders (trophonts), which are mostly deep enough to not be affected. Spots do come and go as part of ich's life cycle, I'm sure most people are aware.

 

[LAReefer4Life]

IMO - General Cure has no benefit over Prazipro for wrasses. The praziquantel dose is about the same, and GC has the metronidazole in it, which is not without its own stressor issues. The big issue with Prazipro is the solvent - one of the glycols. It disperses the prazi, but then it is broken down by heterotrophic bacteria, which can suck oxygen out of the water. Flashlight fish can't tolerate that, and wrasses can also have issues if the tank does not have good aeration., It also works like carbon dosing and can drop your nitrates.

Jay

Jay, what do you think the diagnoses is? I want to make sure I am treating accordingly and taking the best course of action with the proper medication. Based on the info provided what’s are your thoughts? I don’t want to pull all my fish in QT and put them through copper if not needed because it’s flukes or visa versa treating my display tank with prazipro since I have prazi sensitive fish.

if it were ich, would the spots dissappear with a FWD? My understanding is the FWD would not remove ich as the are embedded under the skin. Also the spots are not raised from the skin and only one fish showed the spots to begin with.

 

[LAReefer4Life]

No. Spots are the skin's reaction to the feeders (trophonts), which are mostly deep enough to not be affected. Spots do come and go as part of ich's life cycle, I'm sure most people are aware.

Thanks @nereefpat, so just to clarify, they ich spots would remain on the fish after dip? So we can most likely elimate ich as the culprit

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks @nereefpat, so just to clarify, they ich spots would remain on the fish after dip? So we can most likely elimate ich as the culprit

The problem is - that Ich spots can also 'fall off over-night' on their own.

I wouldn't be interested in any recommendation this LFS may provide.

The reason I recommended this - is that his treatment/lack of treatment is partly based on what the seller did to QT the fish.

@LAReefer4 So - let's look at the whole picture. you bought fish (assume all of the fish) from a vendor that QT's their fish. You've had this angelfish for 5 years - and you noticed the problem 3-5 days ago - the fish has no other symptoms - and the other fish also seem healthy. You did add another fish about 10 weeks ago.

The assumption is that the seller QT'd all of the fish properly - Which may not be the case. BUT - if it is illnww - either it's a QT failure, or it's a problem that has been in your tank - sub clinically there - and for some reason - attacked this fish (perhaps when other things were introduced?).

To me - the key of 'what to do - is to decide - are things progressing, staying the same or getting better - and are other fish having problems. ? If not worse/spreading, I would continue to watch.

PS - IF there is worsening/etc - I would go with Prazipro - and in fact I might do that anyway - Mainly because the only way to totally rule these things out is to start treating for one of them. Since Prazipro can be started in the display - and you think its flukes - thats how I would go.

 

[LAReefer4Life]

The problem is - that Ich spots can also 'fall off over-night' on their own.

They were immediately gone after the dip, that's what I am trying clear up. My understanding over the years is that ich wouldn't fall off during the dip but totally understand the life cycle of 3-7 days the ich falls off.

 

[nereefpat]

Thanks @nereefpat, so just to clarify, they ich spots would remain on the fish after dip? So we can most likely elimate ich as the culprit

My thinking aligns with yours there. I would say, probably something else other than ich.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Jay, what do you think the diagnoses is? I want to make sure I am treating accordingly and taking the best course of action with the proper medication. Based on the info provided what’s are your thoughts? I don’t want to pull all my fish in QT and put them through copper if not needed because it’s flukes or visa versa treating my display tank with prazipro since I have prazi sensitive fish.

if it were ich, would the spots dissappear with a FWD? My understanding is the FWD would not remove ich as the are embedded under the skin. Also the spots are not raised from the skin and only one fish showed the spots to begin with.

I still don't think this is ich. Still no spots on any other fish, right? The only other symptoms you are seeing are vague fluke symptoms....and some of those might be behavioral.

As I said, this species of angel shows every little bump on their scales, sometimes for no disease reason at all. Could also be flukes though.

If it were my tank, I would dose with pure prazi from a fish medication vendor. Safer and more effective than either GC or Prazipro. Don't use ethanol as a solvent for it, (some people suggest that) as then you will have the same issue as seen with Prazipro. I express the dry prazi powder into a bucket of tank water (wearing gloves and a mask) through a brine shrimp net or nylon stockings, and then drizzle it into the tank (no UV, run the skimmer, but don't collect the skimmate).

Here is one company that sells prazi (there are others).

Praziquantel

store.nationalfishpharm.com

The dose is this:

2.2 ppm x actual gallons of tank capacity divided by 266 = grams of praziquantel to use.

So - if you have a tank that holds a net volume of 1000 gallons, it would be: 2.2 *1000/266=8.2 grams. Always double check your math at least twice before dosing.

Jay

 

[furface]

Hiya, can’t see any spots, bug that wrought iron butterfly is absolutely magnificent !!

 

[LAReefer4Life]

I still don't think this is ich. Still no spots on any other fish, right? The only other symptoms you are seeing are vague fluke symptoms....and some of those might be behavioral.

As I said, this species of angel shows every little bump on their scales, sometimes for no disease reason at all. Could also be flukes though.

If it were my tank, I would dose with pure prazi from a fish medication vendor. Safer and more effective than either GC or Prazipro. Don't use ethanol as a solvent for it, (some people suggest that) as then you will have the same issue as seen with Prazipro. I express the dry prazi powder into a bucket of tank water (wearing gloves and a mask) through a brine shrimp net or nylon stockings, and then drizzle it into the tank (no UV, run the skimmer, but don't collect the skimmate).

Here is one company that sells prazi (there are others).

Praziquantel

store.nationalfishpharm.com

The dose is this:

2.2 ppm x actual gallons of tank capacity divided by 266 = grams of praziquantel to use.

So - if you have a tank that holds a net volume of 1000 gallons, it would be: 2.2 *1000/266=8.2 grams. Always double check your math at least twice before dosing.

Jay

Thanks Jay, I just ordered the medication, all though everyone seems good now that I separated the zebra tang.

Yes. none of the other fish have spots.

Just to confirm, this praziquantel is safe for use in display tank right?

 

[Tanggy]

marking

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks Jay, I just ordered the medication, all though everyone seems good now that I separated the zebra tang.

Yes. none of the other fish have spots.

Just to confirm, this praziquantel is safe for use in display tank right?

Safe is a relative term. With good aeration and an accurate dose, the fish will be fine. If you have really delicate SPS, the prazi may cause them to look unhappy for a few days. It is commonly said that prazi will kill tubeworms, but I've not seen that myself. Like I said though; do NOT use the ethanol as a solvent...put the powder in a brine shrimp net, hold it over a container and then pour tank water through the powder, pushing it with your hands until it all goes through (multiple water passes needed, so won't dissolve. Then, stir the resulting suspension and add it to the tank, saving some for your sump if you have one.

Jay

 

[LAReefer4Life]

Safe is a relative term. With good aeration and an accurate dose, the fish will be fine. If you have really delicate SPS, the prazi may cause them to look unhappy for a few days. It is commonly said that prazi will kill tubeworms, but I've not seen that myself. Like I said though; do NOT use the ethanol as a solvent...put the powder in a brine shrimp net, hold it over a container and then pour tank water through the powder, pushing it with your hands until it all goes through (multiple water passes needed, so won't dissolve. Then, stir the resulting suspension and add it to the tank, saving some for your sump if you have one.

Jay

Thanks Jay, I greatly appreciate your time!

I have a few questions below.

Is this net 200 mesh okay?


Put the powder in a brine shrimp net, hold it over a container and then pour tank water through the powder,
- Should I use aquarium water or fresh RODI?

- Is there a specific temp that help it dissolve better?

Pushing it with your hands until it all goes through (multiple water passes needed, so won't dissolve. Then, stir the resulting suspension and add it to the tank, saving some for your sump if you have one.
- Just to clarify, you mean multiple water passes so the powder dissolve's from the new into the container and stir the water until it's full dissolved?

- Can I pour the full contents of the mix into the main aquarium or does it need to split by gallon volume between sump and display?

Dosing instructions 2.2 *265/266=2.19 grams
- Do I need to account for rock work or can I just use the total gallon volume provided by the manufacture, I don't wanna overdose? My aquarium is 265 gallons. Please advise.

Lastly, does Prazi have any negative affects on Nems?