Whats up with these nobodies who want to rip off everyone?

[MnFish1]

Supposing you could- what would you sell it for? I don’t have an ASD hg torch in my tank but I will say (or “Will say”… ASD joke for ya) that when i went to a local shop and looked at all sorts of high end torches side by side (Kung Fu Corals)- the ASD HG stood out… this was with Danny’s holy grails, bananas, tigers etc. side by side. note: I’m not a fan of ASD for personal reasons but stating facts- this “named” torch stood out in this independent shop side by side with other holy grail torches right next to it. In my tank I have different variants, all sitting on my sand bed getting the same par. Have their colors morphed? Sure, some but I can still tell them apart. I agree that the name game is silly and torches have recently been overpriced but seeing the market- $750 for an ASD HG torch is a steal. Why? Because someone would pay $1300 for that same head. And- based on what I’ve seen with my own eyes it truly stands apart. Would I pay $1300? No- but as long as someone will anything less is a bargain.

Ps- that ASD torch head was sold when I saw it.

I have no clue- and thats a serious answer. I SUPPOSE - if I was forced to answer how much I would sell it for - and it was my livelihood, -I would sell every product at a price the market will bear (Note - so its clear I mean every non-essential product - I'm I'm not talking about price gouging eggs, flour, butter, etc)

I do know - that at least in a couple stores, prices were sky high for a period of time - this has gotten worse as shipping problems have caused more issues. This means that the price of livestock is, by definition, going to go up. In at least a couple stores - as owners have been able to frag various corals - their prices have come down.

I have a feeling that this will be going against the tide (pun intended) - but I'm ok that yellow tanks are more expensive than 44.99 and that clowns are selling at $100 (though I think that $500 for a yellow tang seems 'high'). The more people have to pay - the less likely they are to just make an impulse purchase, i.e. they will do research. In the past it seems to me that many people just said 'oh well - it was 44$ - and died - I'll just get a new one. By - the way - this Is similar to many other animal purchases Pure-bred dogs that would have sold for $500 are now selling for 1500-2000 or more.

 

[GARRIGA]

You are assuming the efficient market theory. Doesn’t matter their costs of production. If they don’t want to sell something for lower despite demand at lower prices…it won’t be sold. It is only when the price offered meets sellers minimum expectations. Simple answer that over time the costs sellers will sell at will be based upon what sellers offer…or it won’t sell. Too low a price for seller or too high a price for buyer.

Free Market solves that by allowing sellers with lower costs to compete and continue to provide said products or services for that which market will bear. Consumers control this by not overpaying and forcing competition to lower their margin expectations or not compete in said space.

Struggling to see how any fragger can't meet costs after lowering the prices on their torches.

 

[Sdwydler]

I'm not one to post this type of thread, but as of late I've seen a lot of sellers trying to ripoff buyers looking for torches. I can go to a store and get an ASD HG for around $750 or a wild type for around $400. I got a wild type last January for $450 from a sponsor here.

Every ad I open here or Facebook is looking for $800-900 for some random HG. It's disgusting.

You are so right

 

[GARRIGA]

That's just untrue. There's a reason when you buy a Named coral from WWC, You'll likely never see it again. Every one of these houses obviously have their own signature aquaculture lines, but the bulk of what is being sold from shops and major coral resellers alike are wild collected.

Hobby to hobby sales are different and don't constitute a bulk of sales.

Been in the boa morph market for 20 plus years. In the industry 30 plus years. Public pays more because we fancy name something and why we do it. Day they stop paying outrageous prices for house specials then that's the day we stop creating fancy names and asking outrageous prices. Same applies to fancy named frags. Consumers keep paying it and suppliers will keep overpricing them.

Wasn't aware there's still a market for wild caught torches. Thought by now all domestically fragged. Every shop I've been to was selling frags. Now if you are implying the mother coral was wild than that doesn't preclude the fact that every subsequent frag is captive produce and that's my point. In the reptile trade, we still get wild caught mutations but their offsprings are all captive products.

 

[Bob Weigant]

Personally I have no issues with what people sell their corals for. If i want it and can afford it I'll buy it. If not I'll move on

 

[BroccoliFarmer]

Free Market solves that by allowing sellers with lower costs to compete and continue to provide said products or services for that which market will bear. Consumers control this by not overpaying and forcing competition to lower their margin expectations or not compete in said space.

Struggling to see how any fragger can't meet costs after lowering the prices on their torches.

Because of free market. They don’t HAVE to bring to market to sell for less than they want. Many people understand demand side economics but supply side is a bit tricker. It’s not just cover costs but to get a return they find acceptable. Only In completely efficient markets would the price fall perfectly to the point of equilibrium. Luxury goods don’t perfectally follow the base graph of supply and demand. Sellers don’t drop prices just because demand isn’t meeting all of their output.

 

[CoralB]

With regards to the wild collected corals, I don't think many shops would reject them just because they're wild collected and I doubt many people would reject that one coral they really like just because it was wild collected although many would claim differently on a public forum. Shops also want to appear as sustainable as possible so I doubt all of them would be up front about having wild corals.

Agree !!! They have to pay their rent . Ive had employees of a lfs store seriously try to sell me a fish that was dead lying on the bottom of their tank citing that there wasn’t anything wrong with it as it was a bottom swimmer . Honestly I was told there are fish that are top swimmers and there are fish that are bottom swimmers and that the dead fish which I was looking at was a bottom swimmer . Don’t get me wrong most lfs shops are not this bad but I seriously doubt that most lfs shops would pass up a wild shipment if the lights were due to be shut off . Personally I wouldn’t own a lfs as I think it would have driven me away from hobby . Retail can be a tough road for smaller and sometimes even larger lfs . The overhead bills and responsibilities are always there but not always the sales

 

[GARRIGA]

Because of free market. They don’t HAVE to bring to market to sell for less than they want. Many people understand demand side economics but supply side is a bit tricker. It’s not just cover costs but to get a return they find acceptable. Only In completely efficient markets would the price fall perfectly to the point of equilibrium. Luxury goods don’t perfectally follow the base graph of supply and demand. Sellers don’t drop prices just because demand isn’t meeting all of their output.

Sellers will drop prices if demand waivers. They have no choice. Carrying inventory has a cost as well. That which doesn’t move prevents another item from taking its space which will generate profits. Perhaps a niche shop can keep an item indefinitely to draw attention but can’t have a shop full of items they won’t sell because consumers no longer willing to pay outrageous prices.

In the end it’s always simple supply and demand dynamics that drive pricing. Doesn’t matter if it’s a luxury item or bare necessity. Item needs to move to realize profits or continue to increase in cost because rent isn’t free and neither is electricity or in the reef industry the cost of managing water.

It sits. It gets more costly.

 

[BroccoliFarmer]

Sellers will drop prices if demand waivers. They have no choice. Carrying inventory has a cost as well. That which doesn’t move prevents another item from taking its space which will generate profits. Perhaps a niche shop can keep an item indefinitely to draw attention but can’t have a shop full of items they won’t sell because consumers no longer willing to pay outrageous prices.

In the end it’s always simple supply and demand dynamics that drive pricing. Doesn’t matter if it’s a luxury item or bare necessity. Item needs to move to realize profits or continue to increase in cost because rent isn’t free and neither is electricity or in the reef industry the cost of managing water.

It sits. It gets more costly.

Yup. I generally agree with you. It is simple supply and demand. And we are debating the same point with different nuances. When returns drop too far, producers will produce more of higher profit items and stop producing the lower end ones thus reducing supply and pushing prices back up.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Been in the boa morph market for 20 plus years. In the industry 30 plus years. Public pays more because we fancy name something and why we do it. Day they stop paying outrageous prices for house specials then that's the day we stop creating fancy names and asking outrageous prices. Same applies to fancy named frags. Consumers keep paying it and suppliers will keep overpricing them.

Wasn't aware there's still a market for wild caught torches. Thought by now all domestically fragged. Every shop I've been to was selling frags. Now if you are implying the mother coral was wild than that doesn't preclude the fact that every subsequent frag is captive produce and that's my point. In the reptile trade, we still get wild caught mutations but their offsprings are all captive products.

With the demand where it is why wouldn't there still be a market for wild caught torches?

 

[GARRIGA]

With the demand where it is why wouldn'
t there still be a market for wild caught torches?
With the demand where it is why wouldn't there still be a market for wild caught torches?

I'm not saying there wouldn't be demand. Just stating that consumers control pricing. As long as they are willing to pay then prices will remain higher. That's my point and only point.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

With the demand where it is why wouldn't there still be a market for wild caught torches?

There are. The entire premise of this thread alone was in a nutshell" why are mean people selling WC HG look alikes at lineaged HG prices?" WC torches are everywhere.

The premise stated above that a WC torch colony "mother" that is fragged and sold is now "captive produced" is just silly.

 

[Wasabiroot]

Just throwing this out there - corals are colonial animals as we know and each polyp is an identical clone. Furthermore, some broadcast spawn their planula to the ocean currents. who's to say "the" Walt Disney tenuis hasn't settled in multiple spots and been found by more than one person? I understand lineage from the perspective of the discoverer, but without knowing the true expression of genetic phenotype of the coral you are purchasing (which is often far more complex and muddy than a "hobby name" accounts for) how can you say it's identical even when buying named frags? You're trusting the vendor also traced the lineage. It's like finding a flower color in the wild someone else found and named and saying "you can't call it that, even though genetically it might be identical". Not to mention many corals express their fluorescent proteins AND growth patterns radically different depending on source, nutrient level, and lighting, even within the same coral "name"

I understand I'm being semantic - or pedantic- here, but just food for thought.

In other words, if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and smells like one, does it matter THAT much? Perhaps people want to be sure they're getting what they're paying big bucks for, but if it looks identical, maybe the bigger problem is named corals are conflated with big bucks.

I've seen likely the same coral at three different vendors all with different names. Without that detailed genetic analysis, nobody can really say for sure with 100% veracity what they are getting unless they acquire it from the original vendor.

Heck, we aren't even sure if some of the acro species are separate or in a species complex yet.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Just throwing this out there - corals are colonial animals as we know and each polyp is an identical clone. Furthermore, some broadcast spawn their planula to the ocean currents. who's to say "the" Walt Disney tenuis hasn't settled in multiple spots and been found by more than one person? I understand lineage from the perspective of the discoverer, but without knowing the true expression of genetic phenotype of the coral you are purchasing (which is often far more complex and muddy than a "hobby name" accounts for) how can you say it's identical even when buying named frags? You're trusting the vendor also traced the lineage. It's like finding a flower color in the wild someone else found and named and saying "you can't call it that, even though genetically it might be identical". Not to mention many corals express their fluorescent proteins AND growth patterns radically different depending on source, nutrient level, and lighting, even within the same coral "name"

I understand I'm being semantic - or pedantic- here, but just food for thought.

In other words, if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and smells like one, does it matter THAT much? Perhaps people want to be sure they're getting what they're paying big bucks for, but if it looks identical, maybe the bigger problem is named corals are conflated with big bucks.

I've seen likely the same coral at three different vendors all with different names. Without that detailed genetic analysis, nobody can really say for sure with 100% veracity what they are getting unless they acquire it from the original vendor.

Heck, we aren't even sure if some of the acro species are separate or in a species complex yet.

I'm not a big fan of the names for this reason actually...

 

[DJF]

Just throwing this out there - corals are colonial animals as we know and each polyp is an identical clone. Furthermore, some broadcast spawn their planula to the ocean currents. who's to say "the" Walt Disney tenuis hasn't settled in multiple spots and been found by more than one person? I understand lineage from the perspective of the discoverer, but without knowing the true expression of genetic phenotype of the coral you are purchasing (which is often far more complex and muddy than a "hobby name" accounts for) how can you say it's identical even when buying named frags? You're trusting the vendor also traced the lineage. It's like finding a flower color in the wild someone else found and named and saying "you can't call it that, even though genetically it might be identical". Not to mention many corals express their fluorescent proteins AND growth patterns radically different depending on source, nutrient level, and lighting, even within the same coral "name"

I understand I'm being semantic - or pedantic- here, but just food for thought.

In other words, if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and smells like one, does it matter THAT much? Perhaps people want to be sure they're getting what they're paying big bucks for, but if it looks identical, maybe the bigger problem is named corals are conflated with big bucks.

I've seen likely the same coral at three different vendors all with different names. Without that detailed genetic analysis, nobody can really say for sure with 100% veracity what they are getting unless they acquire it from the original vendor.

Heck, we aren't even sure if some of the acro species are separate or in a species complex yet.

Case in point: [Miyagi tort] = [Jesus tort]=[ Ca. Tort]

 

[Screwgunner]

Covid ,timing, religion, the price of tea in China, can we get some politics in here! By the way I just did a 30 gallon water change. My rodi water came out with 25 tds . My resin has not changed color. About to get a new rodi unit ! Another $300.

 

[BroccoliFarmer]

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

Covid ,timing, religion, the price of tea in China, can we get some politics in here! By the way I just did a 30 gallon water change. My rodi water came out with 25 tds . My resin has not changed color. About to get a new rodi unit ! Another $300.

Any chance your di resin just isn't packed right and is channeling?

 

[Lbrdsoxfan]

I had the reverse happen to me when I sold a table on facebook marketplace. Agreed on $150, the lady showed up and said she'll take it. As she is handing me the money, she tells me she only has $130.... Then asked me to unload it for her at her place since she lives alone.... I felt bad and just wanted to get rid of the table, but man that was annoying

I had a recent one with some 30" round glass table tops. Had them on OfferUp and folks wanted me to take them to them for free, FREE. Ended up getting them to a guy that was willing to meet me after work at 11 p.m. at my place.

 

[Lbrdsoxfan]

Covid ,timing, religion, the price of tea in China, can we get some politics in here! By the way I just did a 30 gallon water change. My rodi water came out with 25 tds . My resin has not changed color. About to get a new rodi unit ! Another $300.

Why a new unit, just replace what's worn out.