Where does phosphate come from? What is it really?

[Leyth]

Hey guys, I think I may have a phosphate issue as I am having a hard time keeping brown and green hair algae under control. If I don't suck it out with a baster every night then I would have a hair algae tank instead of a reef tank. It could be a bloom of algae that is to be expected since my tank is only 2 months old now.

However, it seems that hair algae grows by consuming phosphates. If this is the issue in my tank, I would like to understand what phosphate really is and why would rocks be the ones to leak it? I could buy some phosguard and reactors and deal with the issue, but I'd much rather understand it before I take any action. I am trying to keep my approaches simple and less hands on. Any ideas?

 

[redfishbluefish]

Phosphorous is found in every living thing......just like carbon and nitrogen. It is highly reactive and forms complexes with other elements, and this is what is typically termed phosphates. So it's in the foods you feed, the bacteria in your tank and again, all living things. When these things died and degrade (or get eaten, digested and poohed), it adds these things to your water. You can't avoid them. That's were it comes from.

What you need to do is export them. This can be done with "absorbents" such as GFO, or consumed by bacteria that is then removed by your skimmer, or consumed by algae in a refugium (cheato) and then trimmed and removed.

Hope this helps.

 

[Leyth]

Ah yes, that helps a lot. I understand now. Ok, so we gotta figure out how to export this stuff. My tank is a 17 gallon with an Aquaclear 70 on it. I would prefer not to get a skimmer or run a reactor because it would add a lot to the footprint of the tank. My tank is in the kitchen so my wife wouldn't like it, but I will do it if that is what is necessary.

My current idea is to turn the Aquaclear into a fuge, but would that be enough size to run Chaeto for a 17 gallon? Also, I wouldnt have anywhere to keep the filter floss, purigen, and biomax. Would it be more beneficial to ditch that stuff to get to run chaeto? Maybe I could mod the basket to contain the filter floss and purigen underneath where the chaeto would be?

 

[jason2459]

It comes from P


:D

I just wanted to say that.

I know bad chem humor.

 

[redfishbluefish]

And I left out the most obvious and common means of exporting unwanted stuff......routine water changes.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Phosphate initially comes from foods (primarily, unless you use untreated tap water), whether it is eaten or not doesn't really matter. There is a lot in it and it ends up in the water. If the rock has phospahte on it, or organics on it that degrade, that can also be a source.

This has a ton more detail on what it is and where it comes from:

Phosphate In The Reef Aquarium
https://www.reef2reef.com/blog/?p=3184

and this one shows that foods are the main source to be concerned with in most cases:


Phosphate And Math: Yes You Need To Understand Both
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry

 

[Leyth]

thank you, I will read into those links

 

[stevo01]

You could also have high phosphates in your water supply, as we do in this region of NH. Installing an RO/DI filtration system, and then proceeding with ONLY adding rodi water to your tank from that point on will help considerably, as water is the biggest absorbent/factor in this hobby.

Systems are getting cheaper all the time. They used to cost hundreds of dollars, now you can buy or build a 3 stage for under $100. Installation is also quite simple. I'm using a splitter on the cold hookup of the clothes washer. The drain is right there for the "dirty" water too. Very important to note that you need to have a TDS monitor, inline or handheld. This is how you will know when the membrane for the RO needs to be replaced.

Here is a picture of my setup. Currently, im only using the top 3 stages, will have the other 3 filters hooked up this week. Most new 3 stage systems are just as good if not better than the older 6 stage systems.

Expect a lot of condensation during the warmer months. I just use a towel for now. What I need is a splitter with a valve on each side. At least this way the plastic lines wouldn't drip everywhere from condensation. Not a big deal since its in the wash room.

Also pay attention to your timer/alarm. It takes me about 3 hours and twenty minutes to fill my 5 gallon containers. I've ran over onto the floor 3 times so far, SMH. Think I'm going to build an auto shut off for it.

 

[stevo01]

I forgot to mention this is a "50" GPD system, which is quite suitable for most our needs. I have several tanks. I fill three 5 gallon buckets with covers. I keep one bucket labeled with 1.025, and the other two I keep fresh.

 

[stevo01]

Phosphate initially comes from foods (primarily, unless you use untreated tap water), whether it is eaten or not doesn't really matter. There is a lot in it and it ends up in the water. If the rock has phospahte on it, or organics on it that degrade, that can also be a source.

This has a ton more detail on what it is and where it comes from:

Phosphate In The Reef Aquarium
https://www.reef2reef.com/blog/?p=3184

and this one shows that foods are the main source to be concerned with in most cases:


Phosphate And Math: Yes You Need To Understand Both
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry

Randy, your Awesome. Thanks for doing what you do!

 

[Leyth]

Hey Steve, I have been buying freshwater from the LFS. Is that just as good or should I look into one of these kits instead?

 

[stevo01]

Hey Steve, I have been buying freshwater from the LFS. Is that just as good or should I look into one of these kits instead?

If your buying water from the LFS then one would assume your getting rodi water. You would also have to assume their water TDS levels are being regularly checked.

That being said. An LFS near me sells rodi water priced per gallon. They also have some of the unhealthiest corals and fish I've ever seen! I will NEVER buy any aquatic live stock from them. For all you know you could be paying for water that is not rodi.

 

[stevo01]

If you have any reason to doubt their integrity, I would at minimum ask to see them check the TDS levels (True dissolved solids).

 

[reeferfoxx]

Total Dissolved Solids*

 

[Leyth]

Ok cool, I will look into that, thank you.

 

[Untamedrose]

Ah yes, that helps a lot. I understand now. Ok, so we gotta figure out how to export this stuff. My tank is a 17 gallon with an Aquaclear 70 on it. I would prefer not to get a skimmer or run a reactor because it would add a lot to the footprint of the tank. My tank is in the kitchen so my wife wouldn't like it, but I will do it if that is what is necessary.

My current idea is to turn the Aquaclear into a fuge, but would that be enough size to run Chaeto for a 17 gallon? Also, I wouldnt have anywhere to keep the filter floss, purigen, and biomax. Would it be more beneficial to ditch that stuff to get to run chaeto? Maybe I could mod the basket to contain the filter floss and purigen underneath where the chaeto would be?

There are some in tank skimmers...no personal experience with it but heard good things about the tunza slim skimmer and I think they make a nano sized. That wouldnt add the foot print on counter space :)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, your Awesome. Thanks for doing what you do!

You're welcome.

Happy Reefing. :)

 

[stevo01]

Total Dissolved Solids*

Thanks for correcting me. I don't know why I wrote "true". May have autocorrected me or just spaced out haha. I'm not going to edit the post, and leave my mistake up there :)

 

[reeferfoxx]

Thanks for correcting me. I don't know why I wrote "true". May have autocorrected me or just spaced out haha. I'm not going to edit the post, and leave my mistake up there :)

I make mistakes all the time. Take it in stride! :)

 

[stevo01]

I make mistakes all the time. Take it in stride! :)

Indeed :)