Where is aluminum coming from?

  • Thread starter Thread starter purpfish
  • Start date Start date
  • Tagged users Tagged users None

purpfish

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 20, 2024
Messages
676
Reaction score
579
Location
idaho
What state or country do you live in
Idaho
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
My last two icps have shown high aluminum (83.8 ug/land 89.1 ug/l on ICP-Ms) where could it be coming from? return Pump is a mighty jet but my Wavemaker is jebao so I thought I might be coming from that but I honestly have no idea,
 
Upvote 0
Who says you can see them
Aluminium oxide can be very fine , can make the water just look a little cloudy
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0
Okay okay. Stop right there. I’m reporting you to the staff now. You are spamming every single aluminum thread to ever exist.
 
Upvote 0
Your approach won’t get you the results you think it will. 🤷‍♂️
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0
What is Randy trying to make you buy with his misinformation?

Your issues seems to be targeted for aluminum oxide. Is he suggesting a treatment or alternative to aluminum?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0
What is Randy trying to make you buy with his misinformation?
Your issues seems to be targeted for aluminum oxide. Is he suggesting a treatment or alternative to aluminum?
It is tacit support for TCIP testing, the issue is a lot of this testing is conducted by interns , sample preparation is a big issue in TCIP, and you have to know how to interpret the results properly , other wise you going to add a lot of trace elements you do not really need, (And they will sell them to you) or change a shoot load of water to remove a contaminant you do not have. That refers to my Chasing Ghosts line earlier
Or you might think that materials like Marine Pure or Matrix are somehow bad when they are not
 
Upvote 0
What is Randy trying to make you buy with his misinformation?

Your issues seems to be targeted for aluminum oxide. Is he suggesting a treatment or alternative to aluminum?
I seek the truth and TCIP can be misinformation dressed up as science that drives unnecessary purchases, costs and a cycle of death.
Stability is the real winner in reef keeping, not chasing ghosts
 
Upvote 0
I seek the truth and TCIP can by misinformation that drives unnecessary purchase and cost
Randy doesn’t even suggest Marine Pure or any biomedia (ammonia is important to corals, and having extra biomedia to promote extra nitrification is simply unnecessary.)

Randy never really suggests excess water changes for somewhat elevated aluminum. In fact, he’s been pretty lenient about higher aluminum levels; It has a someone low toxicity profile.


I don’t see him gaining financially with his recommendations.
 
Upvote 0
You probably have some valuable knowledge and experience to share with the community. Respectful debate is one of the best part of R2R. It would be great if you changed your tone. I find your approach disrespectful and not constructive to the conversation.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0
I am an expert Analytical Chemist

And your qualifications are?

You want to get into a qualifications contest to decide a scientific point? I’m game, but I think we’d be better off using science, and will do so later.

I have a double major BA from Cornell in Biology and Chemistry. I have a PhD in physical chemistry from Harvard. I have been a highly successful industrial chemist for 40 years, including being the co-inventor of several FDA approved pharmaceuticals that have sold billions of dollars worth of drug worldwide. I have received national awards from the American Chemical Society and other organizations.

As a hobby, I have been focusing on seawater and reef aquarium chemistry for decades, answering hundreds of thousands of questions on Compuserve fishnet, reefs.org, reef central, and reef2reef. In three of those, I was an official expert moderator. I was a MASNA aquarist of the year.

I have spent considerable time experimentally studying aluminum in seawater. I published a detailed article on it. I will post it so you can read it. Since the results did not sit well with Seachem when I showed aluminum can come from their aluminum oxide product, they had a chemist (not sure if he was a hired gun or an employee) come on and we publicly debated extensively. I ran additional experiments at their request. They still showed aluminum release. At one point the CEO (Gregory Morin) agreed that the experiments were convincing.

In the course of the work for the paper and the follow up with Seachem, I ran many icp experiments for aluminum with my own hands in a machine we had at my professional job. Many different samples from different experiments were run, including those filtered with sub micron syringe filters to remove larger particulates.

The rationale from dissolving aluminum oxide into seawater is detailed in this linked aluminum article of mine.

https://reefs.com/magazine/chemistry-and-the-aquarium-aluminum-in-the-reef-aquarium/
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 3
You want to get into a qualifications contest to decide a scientific point? I’m game, but I think we’d be better off using science, and will do so later.

I have a double major BA from Cornell in Biology and Chemistry. I have a PhD in physical chemistry from Harvard. I have been a highly successful industrial chemist for 40 years, including being the co-inventor of several FDA approved pharmaceuticals that have sold billions of dollars worth of drug worldwide. I have received national awards from the American Chemical Society and other organizations.

As a hobby, I have been focusing on seawater and reef aquarium chemistry for decades, answering hundreds of thousands of questions on Compuserve fishnet, reefs.org, reef central, and reef2reef. In three of those, I was an official expert moderator. I was a MASNA aquarist of the year.

I have spent considerable time experimentally studying aluminum in seawater. I published a detailed article on it. I will post it so you can read it. Since the results did not sit well with Seachem when I showed aluminum can come from their aluminum oxide product, they had a chemist (not sure if he was a hired gun or an employee) come on and we publicly debated extensively. I ran additional experiments at their request. They still showed aluminum release. At one point the CEO (Gregory Morin) agreed that the experiments were convincing.

In the course of the work for the paper and the follow up with Seachem, I ran many icp experiments for aluminum with my own hands in a machine we had at my professional job. Many different samples from different experiments were run, including those filtered with sub micron syringe filters to remove larger particulates.

The rationale from dissolving aluminum oxide into seawater is detailed in this linked aluminum article of mine.

https://reefs.com/magazine/chemistry-and-the-aquarium-aluminum-in-the-reef-aquarium/
Thank you Randy.
Might be off topic, but do you have a link to the debate you mentioned?
 
Upvote 0
Upvote 0
And for your information corals cannot eat ammonia it will kill them

That obviously false statement of yours has damaged your credibility beyond repair. It might be useful to google coral uptake of ammonia before commenting further on that topic.

No, I’m not perfect and don’t pretend to be. But I am correct in the issues at hand here.
 
Upvote 1
For those interested in a deeper look into the solubility than a wikipedia entry that gives general info on aluminum oxide, here's a more sophisticated discussion...

There are multiple forms of aluminum oxide and hydroxide (aluminum hydroxide is the hydrated form of aluminum oxide, which will be present on aluminum oxide surfaces in water). Since Mike likes to reference bauxite insolubility in his assertions, let's look at what that is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bauxite
"Bauxite consists mostly of the aluminium minerals gibbsite (Al(OH)3), boehmite (γ-AlO(OH)) and diaspore (α-AlO(OH)), mixed with the two iron oxides goethite (FeO(OH)) and haematite (Fe2O3), the aluminium clay mineral kaolinite (Al2Si2O5(OH)4) and small amounts of anatase (TiO2) and ilmenite (FeTiO3 or FeO·TiO2)"

OK, so gibbsite is a primary component of this "insoluble" bauxite. This is a generally recognized fact by any authority on bauxite.

Now lets look at the solubility of gibbsite.

This link shows a graph pf the solubility of gibbsite as a function of pH.

https://www.hydrochemistry.eu/exmpls/gibbsite.html
Note that at no pH is it zero, and at pH 8.5 it is about 10-6 M. how much is that? With a molecular weight of 27 g/mole. that is 27 x 10-6 grams per liter. That is 27 ug/L. While the solubility in reef tank water may be somewhat different for many reasons (such as interactions with fluoride and organics), and likely higher than that value, I'll point out that this value is quite consistent with the values that reefers often see by ICP.
 
Upvote 0
I am reminded of a related study done by Oceamo that showed release of aluminum from such media. Like my study, they also filtered the water before testing with a 0.2 micron filter.

https://en.oceamo.com/reaktormedien2/
Not surprising, the aluminium-based adsorber leads to a significant introduction of aluminium.
 
Upvote 1
Upvote 0

TOP 10 Trending Threads

WHAT KIND OF SUBSTRATE ARE YOU RUNNING ON YOUR TANK?

  • Bare bottom

    Votes: 7 17.9%
  • A shallow bed of fine sand

    Votes: 8 20.5%
  • A shallow bed of coarser sand

    Votes: 10 25.6%
  • A deep sand bed

    Votes: 4 10.3%
  • Mixed substrate or varying sand depth

    Votes: 10 25.6%
  • Some other substrate (posted in the comments)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I don’t have a reef tank yet

    Votes: 0 0.0%
Back
Top
Home
Post thread…
Market
What's new